# Martin Hyde, you're a fucking idiot **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 12, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078 "2006-02-12T04:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/121 "2006-02-13T00:12:28Z")
Actually, that option is Atheist. Sorry about the misspelling. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/122 "2006-02-13T00:13:32Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You say that chaplains are unconstitutional. I point out that the test for whether they are unconstitutional involves a consideration of, amongst other things, whether there is a legitimate secular purpose. I provide an analogy showing how there is a legitimate secular purpose, and your response is to say it’s not legitimate because it’s unconstitutional. With respect, your analogy is terrible. Providing soldiers with desert is in no way analogous to providing them with chaplains (unless you want to argue that chaplains are as devoid of spiritual value as dessert is of nutritional value, but that’s another debate). The Constitution is silent on the subject of dessert, so whether or not dessert makes soldiers happy is _irrelevant_ to the discussion. What it comes down to is your claim that “making religious soldiers happy” is a legitimate secular purpose of chaplains. But if the purpose is to make people happy based on their religious beliefs, that’s the very definition of non-secular. Even if catering to religious beliefs is somehow a secular purpose, I can’t see how there’s a question that religious services advance religion. The distinction someone tried to draw between “advancing” and “maintaining” is also invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/123 "2006-02-13T00:14:05Z")
> [@mrrealtime](#): > > Monty…I had a look at the Mormon links you gave, as well as the army service links: > > Wow. I had no idea. That site seems straight off of some church website, complete with prayer links and all kinds of things. Anyone who believes there is separation of Church and State needs to see that site. The most powerful armed force on the face of the earth openly and proudly supports religion. The text is all written in such a way that it assumes the existence and need for "God " is a given. Amazing. To say that I am aghast is an understatement. > > [About Army Chaplaincy | goarmy.com](http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/about_army_chaplain.jsp) > > again…wow. > > holy crap. > > holy crap indeed. You are truly a tool. ---
**Author:** ![mrrealtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@mrrealtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrrealtime)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/124 "2006-02-13T00:19:28Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > …believe that anti-religious bigots who try to deny religious rights to others are the dregs of society, though. I NEVER ONCE stated a denial of religious rights to others. I merely am stating my right to not be forced to endorse or support the religion of others with my money. I may be anti-religious in world view, but I am completely in support of all people’s right to practice whatever religion they want to, and my right to ignore, challenge, and protest them. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/125 "2006-02-13T00:29:32Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Depends. In general I was talking about the _political_ SDMB, the SDMB isn’t purely a political forum and many of the threads I see you posting in and in which your advice is sought are not political in nature. My memory may be failing me but I remember perhaps a year or so ago being glad to see you responding in a medical question thread of mine. Actually Marty, your statement referred to “this board”. Let’s look at it again. > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Also, the majority of this board is nothing but the representation of the worst and most despicable section of America. Degenerates, the mentally ill, the unwashed masses of extreme leftism that are literally a cancer upon mainstream society. The _more_ credible I’m held by a bunch of degenerates the worse off I am as a person. Quite the broad brush, eh? Or do you now retract this statement? I have a duty to my patients to provide competent medical care and accurate information, even when I hold the individual patient to be contemptible for their beliefs, statements, and actions. I have no duty to provide information here. I’ve provided it for individual posters whom I have found to be ignorant, annoying, bigoted, and contemptible in the past. I did so more on the principle that I was serving the fight against ignorance for the greater fellowship of SDMB board members. While I still hold out such hope for the greater fellowship, I find that your words here make me want to re-think that principle. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/126 "2006-02-13T00:38:18Z")
I don’ have a problem with the chaplain system. I don’t see it as an establishment violation because it doesn’t endorse any particular view over any other, it’s non-coercive and there’s no prosyletizing. It’s just a way to provide a more full access to religious practice for those who want it. As long as chaplains are restricted from attempting to prosyletize or convert people from outside their own faiths. I see it as an attempt to facilitate the right of religious practice for people whose access to practice might otherwise be difficult. I see a distinct difference between the military forcing people to pray or endorsing a specific viewpoint and simply allowing people access to clergy if they want it. Having said that, I don’t think that people who see it as an Establishment violation are anti=religious bigots and I think **Martin Hyde** is off his fucking rocker. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/127 "2006-02-13T00:41:24Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’ have a problem with the chaplain system. I don’t see it as an establishment violation because it doesn’t endorse any particular view over any other, it’s non-coercive and there’s no prosyletizing. It’s just a way to provide a more full access to religious practice for those who want it. As long as chaplains are restricted from attempting to prosyletize or convert people from outside their own faiths. I see it as an attempt to facilitate the right of religious practice for people whose access to practice might otherwise be difficult. I see a distinct difference between the military forcing people to pray or endorsing a specific viewpoint and simply allowing people access to clergy if they want it. See what some of you have done? You have stepped to the left…or…something or **Diogenes** and he has to step in as a voice of reason. I hope you are all happy with yourselves now. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/128 "2006-02-13T00:58:12Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > The distinction someone tried to draw between “advancing” and “maintaining” is also invalid. That was me, **Otto** m’lad. When I read “advancing”, I think prosletyzing. When I see “maintaining”, I think status quo. Maybe I don’t understand your terms, but now you understand mine. I think there is a distinct difference there. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/129 "2006-02-13T01:03:53Z")
Quite aside from the issue of military chaplains is the fact that Mr. Hyde conducts himself deplorably. To say, “if you disagree with me you are a bigot,” and then to follow any argument with, “I don’t want to dignify bigotry with a response,” is the epitome of fallacy and uncivility and can not be held on any level as appropriate in a forum dedicated to fighting ignorance. So, let’s have a show of hands. I don’t want to hear you opinion of military chaplains, but of Mr. Hyde’s argument that “if you disagree with me you are a bigot” and follow-up arguments, “I won’t dignify your bigotry with a remark,” or “I refuse to acknowledge bigotry as a legitimate debating point.” If you think he’s a jerk, in violation not only of board rules but the very unspoken rules of human discourse, say “aye.” ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/130 "2006-02-13T01:06:01Z")
“Aye!” ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/131 "2006-02-13T01:06:26Z")
> [@Walter Windchill](#): > > Quite aside from the issue of military chaplains is the fact that Mr. Hyde conducts himself deplorably. To say, “if you disagree with me you are a bigot,” and then to follow any argument with, “I don’t want to dignify bigotry with a response,” is the epitome of fallacy and uncivility and can not be held on any level as appropriate in a forum dedicated to fighting ignorance. > > So, let’s have a show of hands. I don’t want to hear you opinion of military chaplains, but of Mr. Hyde’s argument that “if you disagree with me you are a bigot” and follow-up arguments, “I won’t dignify your bigotry with a remark,” or “I refuse to acknowledge bigotry as a legitimate debating point.” If you think he’s a jerk, in violation not only of board rules but the very unspoken rules of human discourse, say “aye.” It would be easier to find people to say “nay”. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/132 "2006-02-13T01:09:30Z")
> [@rayh](#): > > It would be easier to find people to say “nay”. If people here seriously think that this is a legitimate debate strategy, used even passingly by educated adults, then I want my $15 back. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/133 "2006-02-13T01:09:55Z")
He is being a jerk throughout this thread. [I hope you saw this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7096205&postcount=80) Walter, > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > …snip… > Also, the majority of this board is nothing but the representation of the worst and most despicable section of America. Degenerates, the mentally ill, the unwashed masses of extreme leftism that are literally a cancer upon mainstream society. The _more_ credible I’m held by a bunch of degenerates the worse off I am as a person. Martin has been a big jerk today. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/134 "2006-02-13T01:11:02Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > He is being a jerk throughout this thread. > [I hope you saw this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7096205&postcount=80) Walter, > > Martin has been a big jerk today. > > Jim I’m only taking issue with the posts I disagree with, Jim. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/135 "2006-02-13T01:15:29Z")
> [@Walter Windchill](#): > > If people here seriously think that this is a legitimate debate strategy, used even passingly by educated adults, then I want my $15 back. Let me rephrase that. Unless you want a couple of hundred pages of people saying “aye”, you should ask for “nays”. And to make my position even clearer, aye. ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/136 "2006-02-13T01:48:08Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > And I also don’t believe anyone who disagrees with any government policy (where in the god did that come from, **Club 33**? that has nothing to do with this thread) is the dregs of society. When I mentioned a “policy of the government”, I was referring to the policy of having chaplains in the military. You’ve made it perfectly clear how you feel towards anyone that opposes that policy, especially the members of this board. I’m sorry if my meaning wasn’t clearer. And, by the way, I’m in no way against having chaplains in the military. The problem I have is simply with the plentiful idiotic statements that you have made in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/137 "2006-02-13T01:48:49Z")
An important point we’re missing here, BTW, is that those who enter the US armed forces voluntarily forfeit several Constituational rights in doing so, the most significant (IMO) being the freedom of speech and the freedom of association. I can cite the Universal Code of Military Justice here–I have a GI summary of some of the important points–if so asked. Aye! ---
**Author:** ![deevee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@deevee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deevee)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/138 "2006-02-13T01:56:39Z")
> [@Walter Windchill](#): > > I’m only taking issue with the posts I disagree with, Jim. 😉 er…okay. And as **rayh** notes the ayes most assuredly have it. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/139 "2006-02-13T02:01:41Z")
> [@rayh](#): > > Let me rephrase that. Unless you want a couple of hundred pages of people saying “aye”, you should ask for “nays”. > > And to make my position even clearer, > aye. Aha. Sorry I misread you. Lesson learned: don’t post in between stirs while cooking. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078/140 "2006-02-13T02:07:44Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > With respect, your analogy is terrible. Providing soldiers with desert is in no way analogous to providing them with chaplains (unless you want to argue that chaplains are as devoid of spiritual value as dessert is of nutritional value, but that’s another debate). That’s exactly why it’s a good analogy. It’s entirely arguable that dessert and religion are both devoid of value and possibly harmful. However, soldiers might well be happier if you gave them these things, which is why the government does so. It has nothing to do with advancing religion, any more than providing them with dessert does with advancing nutrition. > [@](#): > > The Constitution is silent on the subject of dessert, so whether or not dessert makes soldiers happy is _irrelevant_ to the discussion. What it comes down to is your claim that “making religious soldiers happy” is a legitimate secular purpose of chaplains. But if the purpose is to make people happy based on their religious beliefs, that’s the very definition of non-secular. Nonsense. If it makes soldiers happy, then that is a legitimate secular purpose, which means it passes the first limb of the Lemon test. The means of fulfilling that purpose does not form part of the first limb. > [@](#): > > Even if catering to religious beliefs is somehow a secular purpose, I can’t see how there’s a question that religious services advance religion. The distinction someone tried to draw between “advancing” and “maintaining” is also invalid. Why? Assertions are not going to get you anywhere, particularly when they are an attempt to bury your head. Advancing means advancing. It doesn’t mean maintaining. You argue that any maintenance effectively is advancing, but you are conveniently ignoring the words “primary effect”. The primary effect of giving soldiers chaplains that they want is that you keep them happy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-hyde-youre-a-fucking-idiot/344078.md?page=8)