# Martin Luther King was conservative **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839 "2012-04-15T14:24:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/41 "2012-04-17T06:35:37Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > From a [review](http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1917/article_detail.asp)of the Marable biography of Malcolm X "Elijah Muhammad reached out clandestinely to the Klan, with Malcolm serving as the point man. Muhammad hoped the Klan would support his solution: not just segregation but full separation—in furtherance of which the Nation sought the Klan’s help in purchasing substantial tracts of land in the South. " The strange association between the clan and black nationalism goes back even further than that to Marcus Garvey who among other things endorsed a plan by a US senator to “deport” black citizens to Africa(Garvey had grand plans of his own for a great migration back to Africa that never got off the ground). > [@](#): > > The dreams of the “Back to Africa Movement” did not end there, despite the Liberian government’s opposition to their plan, and Marcus Garvey’s conviction and imprisonment for mail fraud relating to his UNIA steamship company in 1925. In the late 1930’s, followers of the “Back to Africa Movement”, which included Garvey’s UNIA and other off-shoots of his organization, aligned themselves with an American Senator and white supremacist. Senator Theodore G. Bilbo, “who is remembered as the nation’s vilest purveyor of white-supremacy ” [10], and who is noted for stating, “ if they keep this lynching bill before the Senate much longer, I am going to succeed in getting the negroes deported to Africa,” [11] became the champion of their cause. The senator had also recommended the “deportation or repatriation” of the African American population to Liberia. [12] Strange bed-fellows indeed, but Senator Theodore G. Bilbo promised to propose a bill and get financial assistance from the government if the “Back to Africa Movement” supported him. [http://archives-two.liberiaseabreeze.com/althea-romeo-mark3.html](http://archives-two.liberiaseabreeze.com/althea-romeo-mark3.html) ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/42 "2012-04-17T06:43:59Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > He definitely seemed on the left on economics, but he was not an economist. He legacy is about Civil Rights and not judging people by the color of their skin but as individuals. Unfortunately, the liberals in this country have embraced the idea of treating racial groups differently, leaving the dream of a color blind society to conservatives. It’s common for conservatives to use that line to suggest that King wouldn’t have supported affirmative action, but he [clearly did support similar ideas](http://www.timwise.org/2003/01/misreading-the-dream-color-blindness-and-the-distortion-of-martin-luther-king-jr/). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/43 "2012-04-17T06:54:13Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > From a [review](http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1917/article_detail.asp)of the Marable biography of Malcolm X "Elijah Muhammad reached out clandestinely to the Klan, with Malcolm serving as the point man. Muhammad hoped the Klan would support his solution: not just segregation but full separation—in furtherance of which the Nation sought the Klan’s help in purchasing substantial tracts of land in the South. " Well, then, Mr. Muhammad was dumber than a retarded hammer. Just for starters, which Imperial Grand Kleegle Dragon was he going to negotiate with, who could speak with authority for thousands of mouth-breathing goobers? But your wording…“his alliance”…implies or insinuates an actual agreement, a functioning framework. Which does for “unlikely” what Gibraltar does for rocks. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/44 "2012-04-17T15:42:02Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Living pure? How many mistresses does one need in order to qualify as a sinner? > > Not asking for a handout, or asking and not receiving any concessions from the Kennedy administration? One of the reasons he split with Elijah Muhammed was over Muhammed’s impregnating a bunch of his followers. I believe that after he split with Muhammed he had a few affairs, but just because he was a hypocrite does not mean that the essential message Malcolm X proclaimed was about moral purity. From an interview right after leaving NOI “The Muslim Mosque Inc. will have as its religious base the religion of Islam which will be designed to propagate the moral reformation necessary to up the level of the so-called Negro community by eliminating the vices and other evils that destroy the moral fiber of the community—this is the religious base.” Black seperatists like Malcolm X only wanted some land where they could be left alone. They did not want any handouts from the government which they considered white run and evil. > [@](#): > > You’ve missed the nuance here. If there is no secular argument for either of these claims, then government support of them would contravene the first amendment to the United States (respecting establishment of religion). It just so happens that I do think there are secular arguments for opposing abortion - compelling enough to convince anti-theist Christopher Hitchens, for instance. A compelling secular reason to oppose gay marriage has yet to be posited. There are plenty of secular arguments for both but the religious arguments are the most prominent, if they contravene the first amendment then so did MLK’s argument against segregation. Obviously none of the positions contravene the first amendment, but yours is the kind of argument that illustrates my point. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/45 "2012-04-17T15:44:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, then, Mr. Muhammad was dumber than a retarded hammer. Just for starters, which Imperial Grand Kleegle Dragon was he going to negotiate with, who could speak with authority for thousands of mouth-breathing goobers? > > But your wording…“his alliance”…implies or insinuates an actual agreement, a functioning framework. Which does for “unlikely” what Gibraltar does for rocks. Obviously the idea that the NOI or KKK would ever gain enough power to start giving away pieces of the US was delusional in the extreme. Yet they were planning for the day when that would happen. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/46 "2012-04-17T16:05:28Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There are plenty of secular arguments for both but the religious arguments are the most prominent, if they contravene the first amendment then so did MLK’s argument against segregation. Obviously none of the positions contravene the first amendment, but yours is the kind of argument that illustrates my point. Nonsense. Let me offer some arguments in favor of eating broccoli: -It’s full of vitamins that your body needs. -Fiber keeps your immune system healthful. -Nutrition gained from broccoli causes less damage to the ecosystem than nutrition gained from beef. -Evil fairies live in broccoli plants, and when we eat broccoli, we wage war against evil fairies. My secular reasons for eating broccoli may be good or bad. My religious reasons for eating broccoli may be persuasive or nonpersuasive to other religious folks, but they are irrelevant to the broader discussion. If the only reasons I can offer for eating broccoli involve evil fairies, I haven’t presented a case for eating broccoli. Similarly, MLK offered plenty of religious reasons for desegregation that may be persuasive or nonpersuasive to other folks of the same religion. However, he offered plenty of secular arguments in favor of nondiscrimination, and those were the arguments that deserved discussion in the sphere of lawmaking. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/47 "2012-04-17T16:13:25Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There are plenty of secular arguments for both but the religious arguments are the most prominent, if they contravene the first amendment then so did MLK’s argument against segregation. Obviously none of the positions contravene the first amendment, but yours is the kind of argument that illustrates my point. > [@The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion… So, not government, but legislature. If ending segregation had no secular purpose then Congress would be contravening the Constitution by abolishing it. Of course, there was a compelling legal reason to end Segregation per the 14th amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America and the precedent set by Brown vs. Board of Education. If you want to propose a secular reason for DOMA, do so here. If you want to read about King’s affairs, you can do so [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Jr#Allegations_of_adultery). ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/48 "2012-04-17T22:20:35Z")
MLK started the Poor People’s Campaign for an “economic bill of rights” that included affordable housing and a guaranteed minimum income. That certainly doesn’t seem conservative to me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/49 "2012-04-17T22:24:22Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > MLK started the Poor People’s Campaign for an “economic bill of rights” that included affordable housing and a guaranteed minimum income. That certainly doesn’t seem conservative to me. The last (political) thing King ever did . . . And I’ve heard conspiracy theorists remark that with this [transracial antipoverty movement-of-the-poor,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_People%27s_March) as it was meant to be . . . that it was at **that** point that he finally became intolerable to the Establishment . . . ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/50 "2012-04-17T23:58:38Z")
I should point out that Rev. King most certainly did _not_ regard the founding documents of this country to be something to aspire to or to be restored, nor should he have, since the founding documents of this country explicitly endorsed slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/51 "2012-04-18T00:18:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I should point out that Rev. King most certainly did _not_ regard the founding documents of this country to be something to aspire to or to be restored [I disagree](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-mlk-ihaveadream,0,36081.story): > [@MLK from his I Have a Dream speech](#): > > When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men – yes, black men as well as white men – would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. > … > I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.” He certainly said we hadn’t lived up to the founding documents, but demanding that they be restored/aspired to is exactly what he did in the most famous speech ever given in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/52 "2012-04-18T00:25:20Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > He certainly said we hadn’t lived up to the founding documents, but demanding that they be restored/aspired to is exactly what he did in the most famous speech ever given in the United States. He probably wasn’t thinking of the third paragraph of the second section of article one when he was talking about “magnificent words”. The principles behind them are really enlightened and have a great theoretical backing, but they were too narrow in application from the inception of the Union. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/53 "2012-04-18T00:50:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I should point out that Rev. King most certainly did _not_ regard the founding documents of this country to be something to aspire to or to be restored, nor should he have, since the founding documents of this country explicitly endorsed slavery. As others have pointed out, King’s own words prove that wrong. Additionally, by the logic you’re using, King should have hated the Bible, because it not only explicitly endorsed slavery and endorsed all sorts of punishments for disobedient slaves. Obviously, King didn’t hate the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/54 "2012-04-18T00:53:44Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > He probably wasn’t thinking of the third paragraph of the second section of article one when he was talking about “magnificent words”. The principles behind them are really enlightened and have a great theoretical backing, but they were too narrow in application from the inception of the Union. Of course he wasn’t. Nobody would claim he’d approve of the entire document–I was just objecting to the claim that he didn’t consider the documents something to aspire to. He clearly and explicitly did. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/55 "2012-04-18T19:12:35Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > So, not government, but legislature. If ending segregation had no secular purpose then Congress would be contravening the Constitution by abolishing it. Of course, there was a compelling legal reason to end Segregation per the 14th amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America and the precedent set by Brown vs. Board of Education. > > If you want to propose a secular reason for DOMA, do so here. > > If you want to read about King’s affairs, you can do so [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Jr#Allegations_of_adultery). This is nonsense, I am not going to hijack the thread but if you want to know what establishment of religion really means a good place to start would be [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_of_religion#United_States_of_America) ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/56 "2012-04-18T21:02:16Z")
[Here](http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/democrac/42.htm)’s a much better primer for the first amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839/57 "2012-04-18T23:05:45Z")
This is quite a change from all the wingers trying to decry & dismiss MLK as a communist for the past few decades. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-luther-king-was-conservative/618839.md?page=2)