# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 103
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2042 "2012-05-23T17:54:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Zimmerman on the other hand would have been foolish to assault Martin with the police on the way. Zimmerman has more than adequately demonstrated a propensity for foolish and rash behavior. He need only have grabbed Martin by the hoodie to constitute an assault on his person, and this is not an outlandish speculation, given that he had just pursued him, mere minutes after saying “These assholes always get away.” What evidence regarding Martin’s disposition or state of mind suggests to you that he was likely to launch into a violent assault? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2043 "2012-05-23T17:56:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s pure speculation on your part. It isn’t backed up by any evidence. Didn’t you see me say it was common sense? I don’t need evidence for common sense. > [@](#): > > That’s pure speculation on your part. No, it’s common sense. You can’t argue with that. > [@](#): > > That’s pure speculation on your part and racist to boot. I say it is common sense. And yes, it is racist to kill young men because someone thinks they are scary Negroes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2044 "2012-05-23T18:04:27Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Didn’t you see me say it was common sense? I don’t need evidence for common sense.No, it’s common sense. You can’t argue with that.I say it is common sense. And yes, it is racist to kill young men because someone thinks they are scary Negroes. your post was a childish response to my supposition regarding a person under assault yelling for help rather than the person being assaulted. All your posts are filled with emotion rather than reasoned thought. I realize this is IMHO but your opinions are based on irrational emotions and not the facts at hand. Your “scary Negroes” comment is pure emotional racist bullshit on your part and demeans the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2045 "2012-05-23T18:09:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > your post was a childish response to my supposition regarding a person under assault yelling for help rather than the person being assaulted. Nothing gets by you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2046 "2012-05-23T18:14:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What is _your_ evidence that this tape poses no problems for the defense? [Here’s my](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14984202&postcount=92) evidence. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2047 "2012-05-23T18:15:27Z")
Just as I told **Shodan** , his opinion only addresses the problems associated with identiying the specific person who is doing the yelling. It doesn’t address anything about whether the sound is consistent with a violent struggle. Why you even need an expert to tell you that anyway, when common sense should suffice, is beyond me. Again, if Zimmerman claims he was being suffocated and slipping into unconsciousness when he fired on Martin, it’s ridiculous to insist that he could be screaming at the same time. We’ll have to see what his statement says. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2048 "2012-05-23T18:17:29Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Zimmerman has more than adequately demonstrated a propensity for foolish and rash behavior. He need only have grabbed Martin by the hoodie to constitute an assault on his person, and this is not an outlandish speculation, given that he had just pursued him, mere minutes after saying “These assholes always get away.” You’re right that it would constitute assault on Martin. THERE’S NO EVIDENCE IT HAPPENED. What is so hard to understand about this? Yes, it would substantially alter the situation. I would like nothing better than to see evidence that this happened. I have no love for Zimmerman. However, absent EVIDENCE it is unlikely that Zimmerman would commit a crime after inviting the police to show up. > [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > What evidence regarding Martin’s disposition or state of mind suggests to you that he was likely to launch into a violent assault? Martin was a troubled kid on suspension from school. He was challenged as to why he was in the neighborhood. I think he was insulted by this. And while this is speculation it’s not speculation that he assaulted Zimmerman. Putting a “why” to it is secondary to the actually act of assault. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2049 "2012-05-23T18:33:03Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It doesn’t address anything about whether the sound is consistent with a violent struggle. Um WHAT? Have you listened to the tape? multiple shouts of help, space, then gun shot. Clearly there is a struggle going on. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why you even need an expert to tell you that anyway, when common sense should suffice, is beyond me. Again, if Zimmerman claims he was being suffocated and slipping into unconsciousness when he fired on Martin, it’s ridiculous to insist that he could be screaming at the same time. We’ll have to see what his statement says. All you have to do to stop blood flow to the brain is press on the artery. It happens VERY quickly. Your vision immediately starts to narrow. I don’t know if they still allow it in Judo tournaments but you could do this to an opponent. It’s scary and the reaction is usually an immediate surrender. It does not involve choking off the airway. The tape backs up Zimmerman’s account. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2050 "2012-05-23T18:33:09Z")
If I am reading correctly, it looks like Zimmerman’s statement’s to the police are exempt from the sunshine law as defendant confessions. [http://www.kansascity.com/2012/05/17/3615984/evidence-released-in-trayvon-martin.html](http://www.kansascity.com/2012/05/17/3615984/evidence-released-in-trayvon-martin.html) > [@](#): > > Not included: his three statements to police or the video-taped reenactment he did for detectives the day after he killed Trayvon. Under Florida law, confessions are exempt from public records laws. > [@](#): > > In a court filing earlier this week, prosecutors said they also plan to present Zimmerman’s cell phone text messages, photos and videos from the weeks after Trayvon’s controversial death. I wonder if text messages are covered by attorney-client privilege? I also notice in the discovery exhibits, that the cell phone records only cover from 3-7 to 3-22. Did Zimmerman change his phone number? [http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press\_Releases/CJC3rdFlCScan20120515084012.pdf](http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/CJC3rdFlCScan20120515084012.pdf) Page 7 of 8. Also in the Orlando Sentinel > [@](#): > > George Zimmerman’s lawyer on Monday estimated that prosecutors only have released about half the evidence they’ve gathered against his client and warned people not to jump to conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2051 "2012-05-23T18:37:41Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > If I am reading correctly, it looks like Zimmerman’s statement’s to the police are exempt from the sunshine law as defendant confessions. > > […](http://www.kansascity.com/2012/05/17/3615984/evidence-released-in-trayvon-martin.html) > > I wonder if text messages are covered by attorney-client privilege? If Zimmerman is innocent, what has he got to hide? Sounds like you think he has something to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2052 "2012-05-23T18:38:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The tape backs up Zimmerman’s account. You don’t know this. That’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2053 "2012-05-23T18:42:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Just as I told **Shodan** , his opinion only addresses the problems associated with identiying the specific person who is doing the yelling. > > It doesn’t address anything about whether the sound is consistent with a violent struggle. > > Why you even need an expert to tell you that anyway, when common sense should suffice, is beyond me. Again, if Zimmerman claims he was being suffocated and slipping into unconsciousness when he fired on Martin, it’s ridiculous to insist that he could be screaming at the same time. We’ll have to see what his statement says. From the bond hearing transcript, when the prosecutor (Unidentified Male) was questioning the investigator (Gilbreath) about Zimmerman’s statements: > [@](#): > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn’t it true that a lot of statements that he made do not make sense in terms of the injuries that he described. Did he not describe to the police that Mr. Martin had him on the ground and kept bashing his head on the concrete over and over and just physically beating him with his hands? > > GILBREATH: He has said that, yes. > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn’t it true that there is evidence that indicates that’s not true? > > GILBREATH: Yes. > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he also not state that at some point, he the defendant – did he not state or claim that the victim in this case, Mr. Martin, put both hands one over his mouth and one over his nose so that he couldn’t breathe? > > GILBREATH: Yes. > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of sudden that’s when he was able to get free and grab the gun. Or I’m sorry, Martin was grabbing for the gun, did he not claim that too at some point. Climb that? > > GILBREATH: Yes. > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But – and I’m not going to get into every little contradiction but wouldn’t you agree that a lot of his statements can be contradicted by the evidence either by witnesses or just based on what he says himself? > > GILBREATH: Yes. > **[CNN.com - Transcripts](https://transcripts.cnn.com/show/cnr/date/2012-04-20/segment/02)** ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2054 "2012-05-23T18:48:04Z")
> [@camille](#): > > From the bond hearing transcript, when the prosecutor (Unidentified Male) was questioning the investigator (Gilbreath) about Zimmerman’s statements: > > [CNN.com - Transcripts](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html) Note, however, that the witness does not actually identify the evidence. He simply says that Zimmerman made a claim, and that there is other evidence that contradicts the claim. At trial, that testimony would not be permissible. It invades the province of the fact-finder. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2055 "2012-05-23T18:48:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You don’t know this. That’s the point. It backs up his timeline of a struggle. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2056 "2012-05-23T18:57:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Note, however, that the witness does not actually identify the evidence. He simply says that Zimmerman made a claim, and that there is other evidence that contradicts the claim. > > At trial, that testimony would not be permissible. It invades the province of the fact-finder. English , please? Also, did you ever comment on the hearing at length? I didn’t see it if you did. Did you think the prosecutor was unprepared and came off looking bad? Wasn’t there any way for him to object to Zimmerman’s apology, or do a better cross? It would have been an opportunity to have Zimmerman set out his story prior to discovery if he had been able to do it, no? I wasn’t impressed. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2057 "2012-05-23T19:05:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It backs up his timeline of a struggle. What timeline is that? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2058 "2012-05-23T19:17:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re right that it would constitute assault on Martin. THERE’S NO EVIDENCE IT HAPPENED. What is so hard to understand about this? Yes, it would substantially alter the situation. I would like nothing better than to see evidence that this happened. I have no love for Zimmerman. However, absent EVIDENCE it is unlikely that Zimmerman would commit a crime after inviting the police to show up. > > Martin was a troubled kid on suspension from school. He was challenged as to why he was in the neighborhood. I think he was insulted by this. And while this is speculation it’s not speculation that he assaulted Zimmerman. Putting a “why” to it is secondary to the actually act of assault. Look, ten-day suspensions for traces of weed and writing “WTF” on a locker door are not good indications of a predisposition to commit violent assault - particularly in the context of being a house-guest very close to his hosts’ doors. There _is_ evidence regarding Martin’s state of mind, to the effect that he was spooked and eager to evade Zimmerman. It true that there is no \*\*direct \*\*evidence that Zimmerman put his hands on Martin, but this is at least explicable in the context of the other evidence. Zimmerman’s narrative (at least as far as we have received it) is not, and there is no _direct_ evidence that Martin launched into an unprovoked assault. The only _evidence_ we have that Zimmerman was assaulted by Martin is his own statement to that effect, and this is _outright contradicted_ by actual evidence in some ways (such as Trayvon threatening him in his truck) and seems dubious when considered in light of other facts in evidence (such as the fact that he was engaged in a phone call when he is alleged to have sought Zimmerman out and started a fight with him.) Nobody disputes that Martin was on top of Zimmerman when he was shot, but the important bit is how and why they came to be in that situation. It only makes sense to try to explain what happened based on what we know about the situation and the players. We have been told that Zimmerman was sucker-punched with very little provocation by someone who was a guest in the neighborhood and steps away from where he was staying, who was in the middle of a chat with his girlfriend. This is an extraordinary claim. If Martin had such a hair trigger, when do we hear about his other violent outbursts? What was he going to do, beat the neighbour to a bloody pulp and then nonchalantly wander the few doors back down to his dad’s girlfriend’s place? Does this really seem _more_ plausible to you than Zimmerman (acting in the earnest belief that he was helping end a rash of burglaries) thoughtlessly collared a teenager and got more than he bargained for? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2059 "2012-05-23T19:21:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What timeline is that? The timeline of being hit/head struck on pavement/choked. It’s roughly a 1/2 minute to a minute of assault. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2060 "2012-05-23T19:24:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The timeline of being hit/head struck on pavement/choked. It’s roughly a 1/2 minute to a minute of assault. Cite for this timeline? The scream on that call lasts longer than 30 secs, just by itself. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2061 "2012-05-23T19:36:37Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > The only _evidence_ we have that Zimmerman was assaulted by Martin is his own statement to that effect, no, he was clearly assaulted my Martin. > [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Nobody disputes that Martin was on top of Zimmerman when he was shot, but the important bit is how and why they came to be in that situation. It only makes sense to try to explain what happened based on what we know about the situation and the players. We have been told that Zimmerman was sucker-punched with very little provocation by someone who was a guest in the neighborhood and steps away from where he was staying, who was in the middle of a chat with his girlfriend. This is an extraordinary claim. If Martin had such a hair trigger, when do we hear about his other violent outbursts? What was he going to do, beat the neighbour to a bloody pulp and then nonchalantly wander the few doors back down to his dad’s girlfriend’s place? To a troubled black kid who bills himself as NO\_LIMIT\_NIGGA I would expect a challenge to his presence in the neighborhood to be inflammatory. I’ve been challenged 2 houses away from my own house and was insulted but as a homeowner I understood the question was ultimately for my benefit. Martin probably wouldn’t have seen it that way. Had he not been shot he could have claimed anything in the fight and it would have been his word against Zimmerman. That’s all speculation and not relevant to the fact that Martin was assaulting Zimmerman. > [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Does this really seem _more_ plausible to you than Zimmerman (acting in the earnest belief that he was helping end a rash of burglaries) thoughtlessly collared a teenager and got more than he bargained for? Zimmerman was the one who called the police. I really don’t see him assaulting Martin knowing this. Martin on the other hand, did not know the police were en-route. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=102) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=104)