# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 105
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2082 "2012-05-23T20:47:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am also very interested in the EMT report, and how it squares with the report from Zimmerman’s personal physician. It was released last week. I posted about it a few pages ago. Page 181: [http://www.scribd.com/doc/93960335/Documents#fullscreen](http://www.scribd.com/doc/93960335/Documents#fullscreen) ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2083 "2012-05-23T20:51:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sorry about that. > > A witness can testify only to what he knows: what he saw, what he heard, what he smelled, what he touched. > > So a witness can testify, “Zimmerman said, ‘I was being choked.’” And he can also testify, “I observed Zimmerman’s neck closely, and saw no marks, scratches, or bruises on his neck.'” > > But the witness isn’t allowed to take the final step and say, “Therefore, Zimmerman was lying.” No apologies necessary. Thank you for explaining. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2084 "2012-05-23T20:52:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There have been a number of sources that have said a variety of things about Zimmerman’s statements. What exactly was his second statement? What’s the source, and what did the source say? Still an “anonymous source connected to the investigation” according to the Orlando Sentinel. I suppose it’s possible that they made it up or were duped, but it sounds plausible to me as the sort of inconsistency alluded to at the bail hearing. As an aside,I forgot to acknowledge your earlier correction about what constitutes direct evidence. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2085 "2012-05-23T20:56:12Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I was speaking about the supposed attorney/client privilige of text messages. I was talking in general terms. I don’t recall if Zimmerman even had an attorney during that time frame. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2086 "2012-05-23T20:59:30Z")
> [@camille](#): > > It was released last week. I posted about it a few pages ago. Page 181: > > [http://www.scribd.com/doc/93960335/Documents#fullscreen](http://www.scribd.com/doc/93960335/Documents#fullscreen) Interesting. The cops did, in fact, document in their report that Zimmerman repeatedly declined medical care. So maybe they are not all that incompetent after all. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2087 "2012-05-23T21:01:56Z")
The police report jives well enough with those pictures. So I expect the EMT report to conform with the pictures of Zimmerman’s injuries. I do seriously doubt that the text messages contain any admission of guilt or anything so smacking of a smoking gun. But it’s quite possible there’s an inconsistency or information that allows the reader to ascribe a certain state of mind to Zimmerman. My inner lawyer is intrigued. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2088 "2012-05-23T21:03:31Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Interesting. > > The cops did, in fact, document in their report that Zimmerman repeatedly declined medical care. So maybe they are not all that incompetent after all. FFS ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2089 "2012-05-23T21:12:29Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > The police report jives well enough with those pictures. So I expect the EMT report to conform with the pictures of Zimmerman’s injuries. The EMT report doesn’t jive with Zimmerman’s claim of repeated head bashing. It notes only one small laceration, more consistent with a fall (say, after a single punch). His Glasgow and PMS (perception, motor, sensory) are perfect, and no loss of consciousness. No concussion possibility noted or even suspected. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2090 "2012-05-23T21:13:50Z")
> [@camille](#): > > It was released last week. I posted about it a few pages ago. Page 181: > > [http://www.scribd.com/doc/93960335/Documents#fullscreen](http://www.scribd.com/doc/93960335/Documents#fullscreen) Interesting. So the EMT says the initial assesment at 19:41 reveals no external hemorrhage. Then, a secondary assesment (time not noted) list a single one inch laceration on the back of the head, an abrasion on his forehead, tenderness and capillary hemorrhage from his nose. And Zimmerman was taking prescription drugs, Librax and Tamazepam. This indicates to me that he suffered a single blow to the back of the head, the kind someone might get if he fell backwards after being punched in the nose. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2091 "2012-05-23T21:16:16Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The defense has had months now to leak his statement, but it hasn’t. That’s an indicator that they don’t want it leaked. O’ Mara got the discovery evidence last **week**. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2092 "2012-05-23T21:17:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > no, he was clearly assaulted my Martin. > > **Or clearly he was defending himself. You are not stating a fact.** > > To a troubled black kid who bills himself as NO\_LIMIT\_NIGGA I would expect a challenge to his presence in the neighborhood to be inflammatory. I’ve been challenged 2 houses away from my own house and was insulted but as a homeowner I understood the question was ultimately for my benefit. Martin probably wouldn’t have seen it that way. Had he not been shot he could have claimed anything in the fight and it would have been his word against Zimmerman. That’s all speculation and not relevant to the fact that Martin was assaulting Zimmerman. > > \*\*Martin was a thug because he was NO\_LIMIT\_NIGGA on the internet, ergo you, as Magiver, can take common items and fashion them into inventive and amazing tools? \*\* > > Zimmerman was the one who called the police. I really don’t see him assaulting Martin knowing this. Martin on the other hand, did not know the police were en-route. > > \*\* But it’s outside the realm of possibility that Z tried to detain M for the police?\*\* Bolded sentences are mine. I was trying to find an easier way to do multiple quotes on my phone, but it doesn’t work so well. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2093 "2012-05-23T21:24:06Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > How in the hell are you getting that (bolding mine)? I mean, dude, who has the history of resisting arrest, who has a history of not following authority, who has a history beating women? If anyone has the violent past it’s Zimmerman. That’s true, but TM’s past also suggests that he might have been something of a tough guy himself. That was Shodan’s point, which your link did not refute. > [@](#): > > Additionally, Zimmerman was the only adult in the situation. Quick story: I just moved to Chicago a few weeks ago. While walking through Edgewater neighborhood, a black guy (whom looked under 18) bumped into my shoulder, when I stopped in mid-stride and looked back with a grim stare. He turned around and asked me in a nasty voice “What the fuck I was looking at.” I smirked, pulled my headphones over my ears, and kept walking. You see, when you’re a mature adult, you don’t get into fistfights with teenagers. Well not everyone can aspire to your lofty standards. Also, you were not a neighborhood watch person working at combatting a wave of robberies. But after all that, if you had said something back to the guy and been jumped and then had to kill him in self-defense, I would probably defend you as well. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2094 "2012-05-23T21:28:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > IOW, I think Martin was shot not because he was defending himself, but because he had to defend himself in the first place. I’m having trouble finding the difference with what I have said. Just for clarification, are you maintaining that Zimmerman’s gun was a known and present quantity to Martin **BEFORE** any physical altercation took place? ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2095 "2012-05-23T21:30:39Z")
> [@camille](#): > > The EMT report doesn’t jive with Zimmerman’s claim of repeated head bashing. It notes only one small laceration, more consistent with a fall (say, after a single punch). His Glasgow and PMS (perception, motor, sensory) are perfect, and no loss of consciousness. No concussion possibility noted or even suspected. 1. Has Zimmerman’s statement been released? 2. Where did I mention Zimmerman’s ‘account’? I have no opinion as to any concussion, and it’s not really necessary to address unless poking holes in Zimmerman’s account. See 1, supra. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2096 "2012-05-23T21:34:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am also very interested in the EMT report, and how it squares with the report from Zimmerman’s personal physician. The EMT report has been released. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2097 "2012-05-23T21:35:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The EMT report has been released. And it contradicts Zimmerman’s claims. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2098 "2012-05-23T21:37:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And it contradicts Zimmerman’s claims. If you can cite Zimmerman’s claims, please link. Otherwise, no, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2099 "2012-05-23T21:47:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > All you have to do to stop blood flow to the brain is press on the artery. It happens VERY quickly. Your vision immediately starts to narrow. I don’t know if they still allow it in Judo tournaments but you could do this to an opponent. It’s scary and the reaction is usually an immediate surrender. It does not involve choking off the airway. Z isn’t said to have said that M was applying pressure to his throat and neck. He is said to have said mouth and nose. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2100 "2012-05-23T21:51:02Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > If I am reading correctly, it looks like Zimmerman’s statement’s to the police are exempt from the sunshine law as defendant confessions. > > [http://www.kansascity.com/2012/05/17/3615984/evidence-released-in-trayvon-martin.html](http://www.kansascity.com/2012/05/17/3615984/evidence-released-in-trayvon-martin.html) The following items have been redacted pursuant to the corresponding statutory exemption: Subject of Exemption+ Florida Statute Number X Active Criminal Investigative and Intelligence Information 119.071(2)(c) [definition provided in 119.011(3)] X Autopsy Photographs, Video or Audio Records 406.135 X Substance of Confessions 119.071(2)(e) X Death – Photographs or Audio or Video Recordings that Depict the Killing of a Person 406.136 X Emergency 911 – Identity of reporting person 365.171(12) X EMT Medical Records 401.30(4) X Firearm Records 790.0601 X Medical Records in General 395.3025(4), (7) &(8) X Social Security Numbers 119.071(5)(a) X Telecommunications Records 119.071(5)(d) X Witness information 119.011(3)(c)5(a) > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I wonder if text messages are covered by attorney-client privilege? It seems they would count as communication. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I also notice in the discovery exhibits, that the cell phone records only cover from 3-7 to 3-22. Did Zimmerman change his phone number? I have an immense deal of trouble thinking that Z did NOT change his number after it was broadcast nationally via the recordings released. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2101 "2012-05-23T21:51:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > [Sure, I do](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/20/1093168/-Was-the-fighting-over-when-Zimmerman-shot-Trayvon-). But I doubt it’ll change your opinion, so I’m not sure why you’re asking me this. Excuse me for misspeaking. What I should have asked for is a cite from someone who studies sound for a living who determined that the recording is not consistent with someone having his head bashed on the ground. Because your quote says quite specifically - > [@](#): > > Reich says his analysis does not “discount the possibility that there was a physical struggle” between Trayvon and Zimmerman. And his analysis that the fight was over when the shot was fired relies on his belief that the voice screaming and begging was Martin’s, and that (as discussed) makes no sense, and has been contradicted by other experts. It also appears that you are pinning your hopes to the testimony of the cop who said that Zimmerman claimed Martin had put his hand on Zimmerman’s mouth at some point in the struggle. You do realize that “at some point” is different from “continously”, do you not? > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > The only evidence we have that Zimmerman was assaulted by Martin is his own statement to that effect… Again, not correct. We have the nature and extent of the injuries to Zimmerman, and the absence of injury to Martin, apart from a scraped knuckle. Contrast that to the fact that we have **no** evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman assaulted Martin. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=104) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=106)