# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 108
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2142 "2012-05-24T16:41:08Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I think a small of the back carry. He could have been carrying it inside the pants on the right side, but Zimmerman’s jeans didn’t look loose when he arrived at the police station. So if he’s carrying the gun in the small of his back, how does he get it out when Martin is on top of him? I don’t see how he gets the gun out and shoots Martin if it was holstered behind his back when he was laying on his back with Martin on top. Wouldn’t one of these have to be true then: 1. the gun was already out of the holster before he was knocked down and had Martin on top of him. or 1. Martin had already gotten off before Zimmerman got the gun out and shot him. How does he get the gun out and shoot Martin if it is holstered in the small of his back and he is laying down with Martin pinning him down. I don’t see how that’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2143 "2012-05-24T16:42:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But since the blood clearly is dark and crusty. it looks at though the EMT cleaned just the wounds themselves and left the original dribble lines in place. Probably for evidence reasons, thank goodness. That one dribble line that snakes behind his ear…how do you get that while lying on your back? Another one for the WTF file. Are serious? Cite your reason to believe that he was on his back for the time it takes for blood to clot. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2144 "2012-05-24T16:45:01Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I think a small of the back carry. He could have been carrying it inside the pants on the right side, but Zimmerman’s jeans didn’t look loose when he arrived at the police station. Might explain why Zimmerman injured his back, though it likely was in front, because he couldn’t have reached it otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2145 "2012-05-24T16:46:41Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2146 "2012-05-24T16:47:41Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I think a small of the back carry. He could have been carrying it inside the pants on the right side, but Zimmerman’s jeans didn’t look loose when he arrived at the police station. That certainly would be a tricky draw while I was supine with someone on top of me. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2147 "2012-05-24T16:50:05Z")
There were two flashlights found on the ground at the crime scene. One was a a larger flashlight, and one was a keychain flashlight attached to key(s). I’ve been going on the assumption that the larger one was GZ’s and the keychain flashlight was TM’s. It doesn’t make sense that TM would be carrying the larger flashlight to go to 7-11, and it makes much more sense that GZ had that flashlight in his car and brought it with him before going into the darkness to follow a “criminal.” The reason I ask is that I was just reading [the police reports](http://www.scribd.com/doc/93960335/Documents#fullscreen) and noticed that on page 80, lead detective Serino notes that upon his survey of the scene, the keychain flashlight was still turned on. It was also noted frequently by witnesses and the police themselves, that it was pretty dark and there was very little ambient light in the area. Seems to me it’s pretty likely that at some point, both GZ and TM were shining flashlights in each other’s faces, probably coinciding with the initial dialog. If true, I’m not sure how useful this info would be, but if anyone is still holding to the (IMO, ludicrous) theory that TM sneaked up on GZ and sucker punched him, this would seem to dispel such a notion, at least. You don’t sneak up on someone with a flashlight on. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2148 "2012-05-24T16:50:25Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > Might explain why Zimmerman injured his back, though it likely was in front, because he couldn’t have reached it otherwise. And, just because that’s where the gun was when the officer took it from Z (even though more than one witness says that Z placed it on the ground), it doesn’t mean that’s where the weapon was during the struggle. It could have been in Z’s coat pocket for all I know. Yet again, Z’s version of events is kind of important. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2149 "2012-05-24T16:52:23Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > That certainly would be a tricky draw while I was supine with someone on top of me. my thoughts exactly. I don’t see how it could have been holstered there and he was still able to get it out to shoot Martin, unless it was already drawn before he was on the ground, or Martin was no longer pinning him down. Either it was holstered somewhere else, or there is some serious explaining necessary if it was a small of the back holster. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2150 "2012-05-24T16:56:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > With all due respect to the lead prosecutor, I don’t believe the prosecution is tremendously concerned about a “trial in the media” of facts that support the prosecution’s case. I therefore take the initial position that evidence that the prosecution wants sealed will help the defense, and evidence that the defense wants sealed will help the prosecution. > > But that’s just my personal opinion. Without knowing what the evidence is, it’s impossible to judge. What could possibly be in Zimmerman’s statement that could _hurt_ the prosecution’s case? I have a hard time picturing it. At worst (with respect to the prosecution’s case), Zimmerman’s statements are not blatantly contradictory with other evidence. But big whoopty do. Scott Peterson’s statement didn’t contradict other evidence either, AFAIK. At best (with respect to the prosecution’s case), Zimmerman’s statements _are_ blatantly contradictory with other evidence. And since Zimmerman was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder, that strikes me as much more likely than there not being anything there. One reason why the State may not be eager to release his statement is that it contains so many holes and contradictions that it’s going to put heat on the Sanford PD and/or State Attorney’s office. If Zimmerman told a major whopper and yet they still didn’t arrest him even though legally they could have done so, that raises embarrassing questions about their conduct. So maybe the prosecution is trying to keep the heat off the PD and SA for as long as they can. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2151 "2012-05-24T16:59:34Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > So if he’s carrying the gun in the small of his back, how does he get it out when Martin is on top of him? Instead of writing a long post with “what ifs” why not check first? Zimmerman had an IWB holster. Here are some videos that would show to you how it is worn: https://www.youtube.com/embed/fcBSw9Df-0o?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque https://www.youtube.com/embed/fowhw5F_HXM?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2152 "2012-05-24T16:59:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > With all due respect to the lead prosecutor, I don’t believe the prosecution is tremendously concerned about a “trial in the media” of facts that support the prosecution’s case. I therefore take the initial position that evidence that the prosecution wants sealed will help the defense, and evidence that the defense wants sealed will help the prosecution. > > But that’s just my personal opinion. Without knowing what the evidence is, it’s impossible to judge. The “tests” mentioned by the prosecutor that the police performed on Zimmerman would likely be the voice lie detector test that Zimmerman passed. That wouldn’t help their case. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2153 "2012-05-24T17:04:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Instead of writing a long post with “what ifs” why not check first? Zimmerman had an IWB holster. Here are some videos that would show to you how it is worn: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcBSw9Df-0o](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcBSw9Df-0o) > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fowhw5F\_HXM&feature=relmfu](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fowhw5F_HXM&feature=relmfu) For those of us who are too impatient to sit through two videos, how is the holster GZ used typically worn? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2154 "2012-05-24T17:08:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > For those of us who are too impatient to sit through two videos, how is the holster GZ used typically worn? On the side, a bit toward the front. Some people wear it on the side, a bit toward the back. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2155 "2012-05-24T17:10:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What could possibly be in Zimmerman’s statement that could _hurt_ the prosecution’s case? I have a hard time picturing it. > > At worst (with respect to the prosecution’s case), Zimmerman’s statements are not blatantly contradictory with other evidence. But big whoopty do. Scott Peterson’s statement didn’t contradict other evidence either, AFAIK. But it is a big whoopty do, since (unlike the Scott Peterson case) the prosecution has already taken the public position that Zimmerman’s statement is contradicted by physical evidence. One of their lead investigators answered that question affirmatively under oath. So at this point, a Zimmerman statement with no contradictions is not simply neutral; it’s a blow to the prosecution. > [@](#): > > One reason why the State may not be eager to release his statement is that it contains so many holes and contradictions that it’s going to put heat on the Sanford PD and/or State Attorney’s office. If Zimmerman told a major whopper and yet they still didn’t arrest him even though legally they could have done so, that raises embarrassing questions about their conduct. So maybe the prosecution is trying to keep the heat off the PD and SA for as long as they can. That’s possible, although I don’t regard it as all that likely. Still, as you point out, they charged him. They must have something. (Or they were using the Mike Nifong Playbook). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2156 "2012-05-24T17:17:03Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Scott Peterson’s statement didn’t contradict other evidence either, AFAIK. This statement disappoints me, because in [post 642](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14994452&postcount=642) of this very thread, I laid out the summary of the Scott Peterson evidence and mentioned that there were contradictions between the statement he gave and the physical evidence. And I was replying to you when I wrote it. > [@Bricker](#): > > Are you familiar with the evidence that was used to convict Scott Peterson? > > It’s true that there was no direct evidence. But there was plenty of evidence from which the jury could infer consciousness of guilt. Peterson told Amber Frey that his wife had died, and that he was free to spend Christmas with Amber… fifteen days before Laci died. Forensic evidence included Laci’s hair in a pair of pliers on Peterson’s boat. He sold Laci’s car a few days after she was “missing.” His own testimony established he was fishing at the time she disappeared, and testimony from an expert witness used tides and waterflow analysis to track her body back to the same fishing route Peterson used. > > Taken together, a reasonable jury could conclude that Laci was on the boat when she went into the sea, that Scott knew LAci would be gone before she was gone, and that he knew she was dead while claiming she was merely missing. > > Now, if his story had been that they’d been together on the boat, she lunged at him and tried to kill him, and he defended himself, the outcome might have been different. But he claimed she vanished and that he was on the boat alone. The physical evidence allowed the jury to find that wasn’t true. > > Here, there is no such contradictory evidence. > > Yet. Or that I’m aware of, anyway. Again, I imagine there’s something; I just don’t know yet what it is. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2157 "2012-05-24T17:19:16Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > So if he’s carrying the gun in the small of his back, how does he get it out when Martin is on top of him? I don’t see how he gets the gun out and shoots Martin if it was holstered behind his back when he was laying on his back with Martin on top. Wouldn’t one of these have to be true then: > > 1. the gun was already out of the holster before he was knocked down and had Martin on top of him. > > or > > 1. Martin had already gotten off before Zimmerman got the gun out and shot him. > > How does he get the gun out and shoot Martin if it is holstered in the small of his back and he is laying down with Martin pinning him down. I don’t see how that’s possible. Actually one of the reasons I favor a small of the back holster is that it took so long for Zimmerman to get his pistol out. We know, based on the 911 call, that it took over 30 seconds from the start of the fight until Zimmerman fired his pistol. All Zimmerman had to do is roll onto his left hip and give a couple of inches clearance so he could grab his pistol. If Zimmerman had his pistol on his right hip, then is shouldn’t have taken that long. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2158 "2012-05-24T17:29:06Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Seems to me it’s pretty likely that at some point, both GZ and TM were shining flashlights in each other’s faces, probably coinciding with the initial dialog. If true, I’m not sure how useful this info would be, but if anyone is still holding to the (IMO, ludicrous) theory that TM sneaked up on GZ and sucker punched him, this would seem to dispel such a notion, at least. You don’t sneak up on someone with a flashlight on. I don’t recall ever seeing someone suggest that this happened. GZ himself is alleged to have said that TM confronted him and asked if he had a problem. So your observation appears to be of no significance. The “sneak up” notion has to do with the idea that GZ thought TM continued going along his way, and he thus thought he was following TM from a distance (having lost sight of him) and suddenly became aware that he was in close proximity when he was confronted by TM. But no one (AFAIK) has suggested that his first contact with TM was when he got punched out. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2159 "2012-05-24T17:29:50Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Actually one of the reasons I favor a small of the back holster is that it took so long for Zimmerman to get his pistol out. We know, based on the 911 call, that it took over 30 seconds from the start of the fight until Zimmerman fired his pistol. > > All Zimmerman had to do is roll onto his left hip and give a couple of inches clearance so he could grab his pistol. If Zimmerman had his pistol on his right hip, then is shouldn’t have taken that long. Another plausible explanation is that shooting Martin was a last ditch effort. No one takes an intentional beating. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2160 "2012-05-24T17:30:25Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > What could possibly be in Zimmerman’s statement that could hurt the prosecution’s case? I have a hard time picturing it. How about Zimmerman telling the police “I remember saying to him ‘I’m begging you’”? > [@Bricker](#): > > They must have something. (Or they were using the Mike Nifong Playbook). How likely do you think it is that the prosecution has something dealing with motive? They charged him with second degree murder, so I would think they have to establish a willful act in some way. Or might this just be over-charging due to public pressure, in hopes of a better plea bargain? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2161 "2012-05-24T17:35:58Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Actually one of the reasons I favor a small of the back holster is that it took so long for Zimmerman to get his pistol out. We know, based on the 911 call, that it took over 30 seconds from the start of the fight until Zimmerman fired his pistol. Unless he already had the pistol out and there was a fight for control of the gun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=107) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=109)