# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 109
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2162 "2012-05-24T17:39:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t recall ever seeing someone suggest that this happened. GZ himself is alleged to have said that TM confronted him and asked if he had a problem. So your observation appears to be of no significance. > > The “sneak up” notion has to do with the idea that GZ thought TM continued going along his way, and he thus thought he was following TM from a distance (having lost sight of him) and suddenly became aware that he was in close proximity when he was confronted by TM. But no one (AFAIK) has suggested that his first contact with TM was when he got punched out. There have been multiple people in this thread and elsewhere who have suggested just that, though I doubt any still hold to it. Zimmerman’s brother is probably the one who started that belief. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2163 "2012-05-24T17:46:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Instead of writing a long post with “what ifs” why not check first? Zimmerman had an IWB holster. Here are some videos that would show to you how it is worn: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcBSw9Df-0o](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcBSw9Df-0o) > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fowhw5F\_HXM&feature=relmfu](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fowhw5F_HXM&feature=relmfu) One of your links points out that it can be carried in the front or the back. Which is where we had already arrived. It doesn’t make me any more sure of where Z had his gun just before he pulled it to shoot M. “I go over the IWB (inside the waist band) holster and show you how how to properly draw using from it from 2 conceal carry modes (front and back configurations).” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2164 "2012-05-24T18:00:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How likely do you think it is that the prosecution has something dealing with motive? They charged him with second degree murder, so I would think they have to establish a willful act in some way. > > Or might this just be over-charging due to public pressure, in hopes of a better plea bargain? If you asked me how likely it is to roll a ten in craps, I can tell you confidently that a single roll has a one in twelve chance of being a ten. I have no way to even begin figuring how likely either of those outcomes you mention are. It’s possible they could be overcharging. But to assess that, I’d need to know what their hole cards are. And it’s possible they have a killer piece of evidence, like a text message, saying something highly inculpatory. But to assess that, I’d need to know what their hole cards are. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2165 "2012-05-24T18:09:07Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > “I go over the IWB (inside the waist band) holster and show you how how to properly draw using from it from 2 conceal carry modes (front and back configurations).” By “front and back” he means something like 2 o’clock and 4 o’clock. You don’t use IWB in small of your back. There are SOB holsters for that. ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2166 "2012-05-24T18:12:15Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > There were two flashlights found on the ground at the crime scene. One was a a larger flashlight, and one was a keychain flashlight attached to key(s). I’ve been going on the assumption that the larger one was GZ’s and the keychain flashlight was TM’s. I’m pretty sure both flashlights belonged to GZ. I think Detective Gilbreath mentioned them during the bond hearing, saying the large flashlight wasn’t working well. You can hear lots of clicking and banging on GZ’s call to police after he gets out of his car, which I have interpreted as GZ working the switch and banging the flashlight to try to get it to work. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2167 "2012-05-24T18:13:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by\*\* Bricker\*\*: > With all due respect to the lead prosecutor, I don’t believe the prosecution is tremendously concerned about a “trial in the media” of facts that support the prosecution’s case. I therefore take the initial position that evidence that the prosecution wants sealed will help the defense, and evidence that the defense wants sealed will help the prosecution. Wouldn’t the prosecutor be worried about contaminating the jury pool, regardless of which side benefits from it? Couldn’t that lead to a change of venue or a bench trial, neither of which benefits the prosecution? Also, I noticed that one piece of evidence they want suppressed are the photos of Trayvon Martin’s body. Why would either side object to that? Is it typical to release that type of evidence to the public? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2168 "2012-05-24T18:32:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Instead of writing a long post with “what ifs” why not check first? Zimmerman had an IWB holster. Here are some videos that would show to you how it is worn: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcBSw9Df-0o](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcBSw9Df-0o) > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fowhw5F\_HXM&feature=relmfu](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fowhw5F_HXM&feature=relmfu) Dude, this is a speculation and opinion thread. Asking questions is speculating, and therefore the whole point of this thread. Don’t make up your own arbitrary rules for the thread and sarcastically criticize others for not following them. It just makes you seem petty. Also, as was already pointed out, your cite and further information indicate that this can indeed be worn on the back (perhaps not the exact center of the back, but if you are laying on your back with someone on top of you, you are laying on your back, not just part of your back. Its all connected.). So you haven’t really cleared anything up here as you seem to think that you have. You seem so completely certain about this, yet even your own cite shows that it is not all that clear. Do you know how Zimmerman was wearing it that night? Do you know how easy or difficult it would have been for him to get the gun out? Are you certain that it was safely holstered up until the seconds immediately before the shot? You really don’t know any of this, just like I don’t, but you are acting like you are 100% certain of all this, and anyone that asks a question is biased or stupid or something. If you’re looking to change any opinions here, this is not the way to go about it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2169 "2012-05-24T18:38:31Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Dude, this is a speculation and opinion thread. Asking questions is speculating, and therefore the whole point of this thread. You should at least have found out what type of holster Zimmerman had before you “speculated”. It’s publicly available information. Not doing that is pure laziness. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2170 "2012-05-24T18:47:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You should at least have found out what type of holster Zimmerman had before you “speculated”. It’s publicly available information. Not doing that is pure laziness. Get over yourself. I was responding to someone else who said that he believed he was wearing a small of the back holster. My post was a reply to that supposition. You jumped in and shit on the conversation and insulted me without reading the thread apparently. You’re off the mark here. Find another target. And yes, puns definitely intended. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2171 "2012-05-24T18:51:16Z")
Also, the type of holster he was using can be worn on the back, as your cite said. Do you know for a fact that he was wearing it in the front? So that doesn’t invalidate the questions then does it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2172 "2012-05-24T18:51:18Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Get over yourself. I was responding to someone else who said that he believed he was wearing a small of the back holster. And you didn’t check the widely available public information as to whether he was, in fact, wearing an SOB holster. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2173 "2012-05-24T18:57:22Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Also, the type of holster he was using can be worn on the back, as your cite said. No, my cite didn’t say. By “back” my cite means at 4 o’clock position. For all I know, Zimmerman used an IWB holster but strapped it to his ankle for some reason. Possible, right? Probable - no. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2174 "2012-05-24T19:03:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And you didn’t check the widely available public information as to whether he was, in fact, wearing an SOB holster. enough. You aren’t even reading what I’m saying, so I’m not seeing the point in wasting my time continuing this with you. At least have the intellectual integrity to actually read the replies that the person you have decided to engage with writes, and reply to things they say, or otherwise what are we even doing here? Why did you even reply to me in the first place? It clearly wasn’t to have a conversation. That involves an actual back and forth, and the willingness to actually read what the other side says. It seems that you really just want the last word of a pointless side conversation that you started based on a lack of reading comprehension, and apparently have no interest in actually participating in, aside from insults. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2175 "2012-05-24T19:05:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, my cite didn’t say. By “back” my cite means at 4 o’clock position. > > For all I know, Zimmerman used an IWB holster but strapped it to his ankle for some reason. Possible, right? Probable - no. What part of your body is at 4 o’clock? Is it the front? Where is 4 o’clock when you are laying flat on your back with a person pinning you down? Accessible? On the ground, underneath you, or in the front? Where the hell are you getting your absolute certainty here? Were you there that night or something? Jeeze. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2176 "2012-05-24T19:10:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By “front and back” he means something like 2 o’clock and 4 o’clock. You don’t use IWB in small of your back. There are SOB holsters for that. I think the Kel-tec is small enough for Zimmerman to wear outside his pants in the small of his back. A couple of decades ago, when I actually was interested in firearms, I just bought a regular right hand holster and drew it left handed for SOB carry. Since I’m left-handed that worked fine. I don’t recall any 9mm pistols as small as a Kel-tec back then. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2177 "2012-05-24T19:11:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you asked me how likely it is to roll a ten in craps, I can tell you confidently that a single roll has a one in twelve chance of being a ten. Not to go off on a tangent, but I don’t think this is correct. Shouldn’t it be 2 in 12 chance? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2178 "2012-05-24T19:12:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By “front and back” he means something like 2 o’clock and 4 o’clock. You don’t use IWB in small of your back. There are SOB holsters for that. False dichotomy. [IWB SOB for Kel-Tec PF9](http://www.ebay.com/itm/PANTS-IWB-SOB-HOLSTER-4-KEL-TEC-PF9-P-11-PF-9-/140510983914). ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2179 "2012-05-24T19:23:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > On the side, a bit toward the front. Some people wear it on the side, a bit toward the back. Since Zimmerman was wearing a jacket, instead of a long shirt, he would never wear his pistol that far forward. OTOH, he should have been able draw with one hand. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2180 "2012-05-24T19:25:07Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > What part of your body is at 4 o’clock? Is it the front? It’s the side. > [@](#): > > Where is 4 o’clock when you are laying flat on your back with a person pinning you down? Accessible? Yes. A lot more accessible than the “small of the back” that you “speculated” about. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2181 "2012-05-24T19:31:56Z")
Whatever you say, George. :rolleyes: ```php ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=108) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=110)