# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 118
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2342 "2012-06-08T16:45:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > She didn’t even kill anyone and she’s been charged. That was her mistake: she left a witness. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2343 "2012-06-08T16:45:27Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > And FTR, I’ve lived in Florida since the mid-70’s and am a gun owner who doesn’t object to the proportionate use of deadly force in self-defense, or the principles of the Castle Doctrine. I just don’t think the SYG law was necessary, or if it was, that it needed to place such a high burden on law enforcement and the prosecution. They seemed to be handling justifiable uses of deadly force in self-defense just fine, IMO. We didn’t need any tweaks to the law that encouraged or emboldened more people to shoot each other - we were doing just fine in that regard. As I understand it, the primary purpose of these laws was to avoid having crime victims having their lives ruined even more in the aftermath of these crimes by having to defend themselves against prosecutions. Even if they are found innocent, it can be costly to the point of bankruptcy and beyond, extremely disruptive to the person’s live, and emotionally traumatic. I could be wrong about the motivations of this law, but that’s my impression. Regardless, I am in favor of SYG laws for this reason. In fact, I think they should be made even stronger. In this case, Corey has made comments indicating that she considered the SYG law to be just another obstacle to overcome. And she was obviously not deterred. O’Mara has said that GZ’s defense can cost up to a million dollars, and he is sitting in jail right now. Even if he is found innocent, I don’t think he gets his money or life back. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2344 "2012-06-08T16:48:10Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Who gives money to someone they never heard of? Who gives money to someone just because they’ve heard of them? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2345 "2012-06-08T16:58:18Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Marissa Alexander would make a much better poster girl for SYG than Zimmerman. She didn’t even kill anyone and she’s been charged. People have hitched their wagons to the wrong horse. The world will laugh at them when their support backfires. When you’re in fear for your life, you don’t shoot in the air. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2346 "2012-06-08T18:11:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > When you’re in fear for your life, you don’t shoot in the air. When you’re in fear for your life, you don’t go out of your way to pursue someone either. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2347 "2012-06-08T18:45:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > When you’re in fear for your life, you don’t go out of your way to pursue someone either. No one ever claimed that when Zimmerman followed Martin, he was in fear for his life. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2348 "2012-06-08T18:55:14Z")
Apparently, George Zimmerman [repeatedly asserted](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department) he was fearful before he followed Martin. > [@](#): > > George Zimmerman told investigators that while he was on the phone with a Sanford police dispatcher reporting Trayvon Martin as suspicious, the teenager was circling his vehicle on foot, a source familiar with the investigation told the Orlando Sentinel. > > The source said Zimmerman’s account of events hasn’t changed in his several statements to police — in which he said he was so unnerved by the teen’s behavior that he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation. However, he never mentioned any of that while talking to the dispatcher. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2349 "2012-06-08T19:00:21Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Apparently, George Zimmerman [repeatedly asserted](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department) he was fearful before he followed Martin. No one ever claimed that when Zimmerman followed Martin (or before it), he was in fear for his life. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2350 "2012-06-08T19:40:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As I understand it, the primary purpose of these laws was to avoid having crime victims having their lives ruined even more in the aftermath of these crimes by having to defend themselves against prosecutions. Even if they are found innocent, it can be costly to the point of bankruptcy and beyond, extremely disruptive to the person’s live, and emotionally traumatic. > > I could be wrong about the motivations of this law, but that’s my impression. Regardless, I am in favor of SYG laws for this reason. In fact, I think they should be made even stronger. In this case, Corey has made comments indicating that she considered the SYG law to be just another obstacle to overcome. And she was obviously not deterred. > > O’Mara has said that GZ’s defense can cost up to a million dollars, and he is sitting in jail right now. Even if he is found innocent, I don’t think he gets his money or life back. One would hope that, if the SYG hearing finds that he has no case to answer, he could sue the state of Florida. The point you make that needs emphasising is that, if Zimmerman’s story is true, he’s a victim of crime who is currently in jail, and if that is the case, it’s a serious injustice. This is presumably why many people support him - although in my case it’s justice and the process of law I support, not Zimmerman as an individual. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2351 "2012-06-08T20:15:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No one ever claimed that when Zimmerman followed Martin (or before it), he was in fear for his life. Nope, but the fact that he gave dubious statements about his state of mind when he followed Martin (and the reasons for it) may have a lot to do with why the state pursued charges against him. If he _said_ he was fearful of Martin while he was on the phone with police dispatch, _because_ Martin was circling his vehicle in a threatening manner - and that doesn’t make sense in the context of his behavior or what he said at that time, then this ought to inform our assessment of the truthfulness of statements he makes about his state of mind or the reason for it three minutes after that. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2352 "2012-06-08T20:27:10Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Apparently, George Zimmerman [repeatedly asserted](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department) he was fearful before he followed Martin. The circling of Zimmerman’s truck by Trayvon may conceivably have been caught on the surveillance camera at the gated community. Though it’s unlikely the camera could have caught the actual shooting, with townhouses blocking the back street, you would think that if Zimmerman’s story deviated from what was witness able, and the investigators must have looked at the video, he wouldn’t have been let go so quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2353 "2012-06-08T20:28:36Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Nope, but the fact that he gave dubious statements about his state of mind when he followed Martin (and the reasons for it) may have a lot to do with why the state pursued charges against him. > > If he _said_ he was fearful of Martin while he was on the phone with police dispatch, _because_ Martin was circling his vehicle in a threatening manner - and that doesn’t make sense in the context of his behavior or what he said at that time, then this ought to inform our assessment of the truthfulness of statements he makes about his state of mind or the reason for it three minutes after that. Zimmerman’s neighborhood had experienced a home invasion. Keeping a suspicious person within eyesight to direct the police would be considered a brave thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2354 "2012-06-08T21:28:54Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > Though it’s unlikely the camera could have caught the actual shooting, with townhouses blocking the back street, you would think that if Zimmerman’s story deviated from what was witness able, and the investigators must have looked at the video, he wouldn’t have been let go so quickly. I think his statement was initially taken at face value. (Indeed, witnesses who were distressed about hearing a teenager’s last cries for help were told that it wasn’t Martin that was screaming - although the consensus of the eyewitness reports seems to be that it was Martin that was screaming.) It was only after they decided to look closer that the realised that there were contradictions in his statements. > [@Magiver](#): > > Keeping a suspicious person within eyesight to direct the police would be considered a brave thing to do. Indeed. So why would he feel a need to assert that he had only gone “to check an address” and was ambushed on the way back to his vehicle? Hint: “Because that’s what happened” is not a good answer, because there ain’t no signs or addresses to check back there. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2355 "2012-06-08T22:45:54Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > So why would he feel a need to assert that he had only gone “to check an address” and was ambushed on the way back to his vehicle? Hint: “Because that’s what happened” is not a good answer, because there ain’t no signs or addresses to check back there. I still have doubts that Zimmerman ever admitted to following Martin. Nothing I’ve read makes this niggling detail crystal clear. This is what I’m thinking he could have claimed in his statement: Martin circled his truck in a menacing fashion. Zimmerman was so scared of this thug that Lawd knows he didn’t know what to do with hisself. He was practically peeing in his pants with fear, so there’s just no way he could have initiated a fight with this guy. He just sat there frozen, talking to the dispatcher, waiting for the scary black boy to leave him be. But there’s one problem. How did he get out of the car if he was so scared of Martin? Well, Martin eventually stopped circling the truck and left the immediate area. Yeah, that’s the ticket. “Whew”, Zimmerman thinks to himself. “Now the thug has gone away, I can leave the safety of my truck and look for a street sign!” So he exited his car to look for the sign. On his way back to his truck, Martin ambushes him. If this is what Zimmerman told the police, how many people who are defending Z now would be willing to say this is some fabricated bullshit? I’m betting very few. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2356 "2012-06-08T23:11:49Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Sure. Consider [this](http://mhpshow.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/04/11527687-stand-your-ground-fails-abused-wife?lite) case. > Marissa Alexander would make a much better poster girl for SYG than Zimmerman. She didn’t even kill anyone and she’s been charged. People have hitched their wagons to the wrong horse. The world will laugh at them when their support backfires. No, Alexander would have been a good poster girl if she had actually shot the SOB. The law is very clear that you don’t use a firearm to gain leverage in an argument. Don’t draw a gun, don’t point a gun, don’t threaten somebody with a gun and don’t fire warning shots. That just proves you weren’t in imminent danger. What I don’t understand is why she didn’t say she drew the gun to shoot him and had an accidental discharge and he ran away. That would have been perfectly legal. There is no law against missing. This is why you should never own a firearm unless you learn how to operate it and understand the laws governing its use. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2357 "2012-06-08T23:32:37Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > What I don’t understand is why she didn’t say she drew the gun to shoot him and had an accidental discharge and he ran away. That would have been perfectly legal. You may be surprised to learn that providing false statements is not actually legal. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2358 "2012-06-08T23:32:45Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > What I don’t understand is why she didn’t say she drew the gun to shoot him and had an accidental discharge and he ran away. Maybe because she was being honest? I guess this another misstep she made that Zimmerman didnt. Perhaps her way of defending herself was to give a warning shot as if to say “continue to mess with me and I will shoot.” I don’t understand why self-defense necessitates killing someone or even injuring them. It almost appears as if she was penalized for defending herself the best way she could without also hurting the father of her children. If she gets 20 years for this while Zimmerman walks, do you think this is justice? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2359 "2012-06-09T01:57:56Z")
I haven’t read up extensively on that Anderson case, but according to [the entry for that incident](http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_229) in the _Tampa Bay Times_ piece ([and a portion of another related article](http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/races-complex-role/1233152)) y’all are missing some of the finer details of the case. To quote the relevant portion of the latter link: > [@](#): > > ``` > A closer look at Alexander's case reveals a more complex story. After arguing with Rico Gray, her husband, Alexander went to the garage, got a gun from her car and returned to the house. Because of that, the judge who denied immunity concluded she had not been in "genuine fear'' for her life. > And contrary to Alexander's claim of firing a shot into the ceiling, a bullet hole was found in the living room wall at about the height of an adult's head, according to the Duval County prosecutor's office. > > ``` > > **\** > State Attorney Angela Corey noted that both judge and jury had rejected Alexander’s "stand your ground’’ defense. > "None of the physical evidence corroborates her story,‘’ Corey told reporters. "There was the 911 call … and you can clearly hear the distress in Rico Gray’s voice. They had a verbal argument (in which) he said ‘I’m outta here,’ and she said, ‘I’ve got something for you.’ " > Once little known outside of Jacksonville, Corey is now familiar to millions. She is the prosecutor who charged Zimmerman. To me, the biggest problem demonstrated by that case is the effect of mandatory minimum sentencing. I doubt the judge would have given her that sentence if he was able to use his discretion in sentencing. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2360 "2012-06-09T02:09:54Z")
P.S. The moral of that story, as it pertains to maximizing your chances to use SYG, is not only make sure you shoot to kill and leave no witness to give their side of the story, but also to carry your gun at all times so you don’t have to go get it when someone needs killin’. Those are the kind of things the law is encouraging. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2361 "2012-06-09T05:09:29Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If she gets 20 years for this while Zimmerman walks, do you think this is justice? If both of their stories are true, then yes. She threatened someone with a gun, Zimmerman defended himself. Although in the circumstances, 20 years would probably be too much. If you are in danger, you don’t fire a warning shot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=117) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=119)