# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 132
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2622 "2012-06-22T01:19:57Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > It is ridiculous to suggest that the suffocation/muffling attempts _only_ occur in the interstices between the cries for help. > Ridiculous. It’s ridiculous to suggest it DIDN’T occur when there is no screams for help. I don’t even know what point you’re trying to make. He couldn’t have put his hand over Zimmerman’s mouth at some point during the struggle because…? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2623 "2012-06-22T01:21:40Z")
I only watched the video embedded in the CBS article. Does Zimmerman mention what the hell he was doing with his hands and arms during all this? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2624 "2012-06-22T01:29:09Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I only watched the video embedded in the CBS article. Does Zimmerman mention what the hell he was doing with his hands and arms during all this? No. He didn’t break it down second by second. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2625 "2012-06-22T01:45:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s ridiculous to suggest it DIDN’T occur when there is no screams for help. I don’t even know what point you’re trying to make. He couldn’t have put his hand over Zimmerman’s mouth at some point during the struggle because…? Zimmerman says that Martin put one hand over his mouth and one hand over his nose almost as soon as they were on the ground, saying “Shut the fuck up.” So if Martin was trying to shut him up, why are _none_ of the cries for help interrupted? None. The poor man was afraid he was _about to lose consciousness_ - either from his head repeatedly being smashed into concrete, or from asphyxiation. As an experiment, sit on top of someone and try to silence them while they cry for help. Record those cries and tell me if you fail to mute at least _part_ of one. As a further experiment, try smashing someone’s head into concrete “over and over” and let me know if they come away with only two small lacerations. Seriously, this account doesn’t grab you by the collar, slap you around, and scream “HI! I HAVE BEEN ARTLESSLY EMBELLISHED BY SOMEONE OF BELOW-AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE!” in your face with breath that reeks of cheap corn chips? Are you the guy George was trying to kid with that “One dollar means one thousand” routine? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2626 "2012-06-22T01:51:20Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > … the State picked up two plastic bags at the scene of the shooting, one of which was identified as containing suspected blood evidence. … > So questions are: what does this evidence show? Was it tested for Z’s blood? If so, were the findings positive or negative? Seems like if they were processed, we should know the results. If they haven’t been processed, why not? … IIRC the bloody bag was used by the first PO on the scene in an attempt to deal with Martin’s chest wound. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2627 "2012-06-22T01:55:01Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Seriously, this account doesn’t grab you by the collar, slap you around, and scream “HI! I HAVE BEEN ARTLESSLY EMBELLISHED BY SOMEONE OF BELOW-AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE!” in your face with breath that reeks of cheap corn chips? Are you the guy George was trying to kid with that “One dollar means one thousand” routine? Seriously. Some of these attempts at spin are equally as desperate as the paper towel tube defense. Except worse in that we don’t even have to wonder if the guy is a liar. We know he his. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2628 "2012-06-22T01:55:34Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Zimmerman says that Martin put one hand over his mouth and one hand over his nose almost as soon as they were on the ground, saying “Shut the fuck up.” > > So if Martin was trying to shut him up, why are _none_ of the cries for help interrupted? None. What the hell are you talking about? You can hear gaps in screaming on the 911 call. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2629 "2012-06-22T01:56:23Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Sorry for the back to back posts, but more weirdness keeps occurring to me. > > -If you look at the discovery evidence, you’ll see that the State picked up two plastic bags at the scene of the shooting, one of which was identified as containing suspected blood evidence. There was also a first aid kit found at the scene. None of the witness accounts or police reports indicates that the ownership of this kit is known. Oddly, the police photos show a pair of tweezers perched on top of this kit, too. > > So questions are: what does this evidence show? Was it tested for Z’s blood? If so, were the findings positive or negative? Seems like if they were processed, we should know the results. If they haven’t been processed, why not? > > - At what point did the neighbor take Zimmerman’s picture with his iPhone? This detail was left out of Z’s statement and reenactment too. > > - Are the last two pics on this slide [reel](http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-discovery-defense-team-receives-second-round-details?gpage=62&#gtop) supposed to be Martin’s body? Because not only is he far away from the sidewalk, but he’s quite some distance away from the “tee” where Zimmerman supposedly encountered him. Wasn’t it a cop that took the picture with a cellphone, not a neighbor? The body was moved twice, once by Zimmerman when Trayvon was tackled after the shooting, not realizing how badly Trayvon was hurt, and by the police who tried to revive Trayvon. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2630 "2012-06-22T01:56:28Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > IIRC the bloody bag was used by the first PO on the scene in an attempt to deal with Martin’s chest wound. > > CMC fnord! Okay. That’s massively weird, but I can accept that. Do we know where the first aid kit came from? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2631 "2012-06-22T01:58:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay. That’s massively weird, but I can accept that. > > Do we know where the first aid kit came from? Most police carry a kit in their car. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2632 "2012-06-22T02:00:32Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > Wasn’t it a cop that took the picture with a cellphone, not a neighbor? The body was moved twice, once by Zimmerman when Trayvon was tackled after the shooting, not realizing how badly Trayvon was hurt, and by the police who tried to revive Trayvon. It was a civilian who took the pic. It must have happened after the cops arrived. The body could not have been moved that far unless they cops were intentionally trying to fuck up the crime scene. If Z was sucker punched and knocked to the ground within seconds of encountering M on the tee, he needs to explain how the kid wound up shot where he was. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2633 "2012-06-22T02:02:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Most police carry a kit in their car. Do cops routinely use pictures of their own first aid kits as official crime evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2634 "2012-06-22T02:28:03Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do cops routinely use pictures of their own first aid kits as official crime evidence? They would take pictures of the crime scene. If it was used, it got photographed. What’s your point. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2635 "2012-06-22T02:34:03Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It was a civilian who took the pic. It must have happened after the cops arrived. > > The body could not have been moved that far unless they cops were intentionally trying to fuck up the crime scene. If Z was sucker punched and knocked to the ground within seconds of encountering M on the tee, he needs to explain how the kid wound up shot where he was. According to the first evidence dump, a police officer took the picture on his own cellphone, not any resident. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2636 "2012-06-22T02:36:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They would take pictures of the crime scene. If it was used, it got photographed. What’s your point. The first aid kit is listed as a piece of evidence. It’s not just a random something or another captured incidentally in a crime scene photo. This strikes me as unusual. How much more do you need me to spell out? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2637 "2012-06-22T02:45:58Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The first aid kit is listed as a piece of evidence. It’s not just a random something or another captured incidentally in a crime scene photo. This strikes me as unusual. > > How much more do you need me to spell out? why would it strike you as unusual? They would document everything that happened including what they did. If they tried to provide medical attention then it would be noted. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2638 "2012-06-22T03:29:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay. That’s massively weird, but I can accept that. … Ignoring the realities of Martin’s wound\* :(, > [@](#): > > [Pneumothorax](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumothorax) is an abnormal collection of air or gas in the pleural space that separates the lung from the chest wall, and that may interfere with normal breathing. … > … Occasionally, the amount of air in the chest increases markedly when a one-way valve is formed by an area of damaged tissue, leading to a tension pneumothorax. This condition is a medical emergency that can cause steadily worsening oxygen shortage and low blood pressure. Unless reversed by effective treatment, these sequelae can progress and cause death. … > … Tension pneumothorax occurs when the opening that allows air to enter the pleural space functions as a one way valve, allowing more air to enter with every breath and but not to escape. The body compensates by increasing the respiratory rate and tidal volume (size of each breath), worsening the problem. Unless corrected, hypoxia (decreased oxygen levels) and respiratory arrest eventually follow. … > … Traumatic pneumothorax occurs most commonly when the chest wall is pierced, such as when a stab wound or gunshot wound allows air to enter the pleural space, or because some other mechanical injury to the lung compromises the integrity of the involved structures. Traumatic pneumothoraces have been found to occur in up to half of all cases of chest trauma, with only rib fractures being a more common problem in this group. … > … Any open chest wound should be covered, as it carries a high risk of leading to tension pneumothorax. Ideally, a dressing called the “Asherman seal” should be utilized, as it appears to be more effective than a standard “three-sided” dressing. The Asherman seal is a specially designed device that adheres to the chest wall and, through a valve-like mechanism, allows air to escape but not to enter the chest. … In the absence of a proper dressing anything that keeps air from entering the pleural space and allowing the lung to collapse is way, way, better than nothing. \*if the bullet hadn’t also hit his heart, and given the extremely short time between the wound being inflicted and someone who knew what to do to treat it arriving on scene, it’s likely he wouldn’t have died. I hope that takes the weird out of it. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2639 "2012-06-22T03:49:06Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The first aid kit is listed as a piece of evidence. It’s not just a random something or another captured incidentally in a crime scene photo. This strikes me as unusual. > > How much more do you need me to spell out? How many other evidence lists have you examined? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2640 "2012-06-22T04:02:27Z")
My cousin got shot in the chest and had a gaping hole. It just missed the heart, but went through the lungs before hitting a bone and deflecting downward. The police officer used something to seal the hole. I don’t remember exactly what it was, but it wasn’t anything much different than a plastic bag. The officer said he needed to seal the hole and someone got something which worked. I don’t see anything strange about using a plastic bag. You go with what you’ve got on hand. Infections are treatable, later. Holes can’t wait. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2641 "2012-06-22T04:04:11Z")
How far exactly from the sidewalk did the body wind up? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=131) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=133)