# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 142
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2822 "2012-06-29T16:46:38Z")
That he even emphasized that he reached for his phone during the moment of truth is indicative a lie, in and of itself. Because it’s completely superfluous information. “You have a problem?” “No, man, I don’t have a problem.” “Well you do now!” BAM! vs. “You have a problem?” “No, man, I don’t have a problem,” says Zimmerman, who then reaches for his phone in his right pocket, but then he realized it was in his _other_ pocket, you see, because that was where he’d put it before, not the other one. “Well you do now!” BAM! ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2823 "2012-06-29T17:28:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > We do have such a witness. The kid who saw the two of them separated on the grass. Both parties could have escaped from the encounter at that point in time, including Trayvon. I can imagine why Martin was frozen in place, though. If he’d seen Zimmerman’s gun and/or Zimmerman was holding it at him, he might not have been too keen on running or running into his house where his little brother was. Zimmerman may have had the same exact fear (since he thought Martin had a gun). But since he knew he was armed as well, he had a safe exit plan available to him–especially since there were witnesses nearby and he knew the police were on the way. You are wrong. Austin Mclendon didn’t see Trayvon Martin at all, so obviously he didn’t see them separated. Apparently it was too dark and Martin’s clothing was too dark for Mclendon to see him. He was quite clear that the person laying on the ground was wearing a red shirt. You can listen to Mclendon statement here. [http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-14-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-14-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/) Also it wasn’t Martin’s brother at the house, it was Green’s son. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2824 "2012-06-29T17:41:30Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > He insists that when Martin confronted him, his first reaction was…to reach for his phone. Why does he need to call the police if - as you say - he knew the police were on the way? Because it wasn’t reported as an emergency call and he wanted the police there ASAP. I don’t recall if the first officer to arrive even had his siren on. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2825 "2012-06-29T17:49:25Z")
The judge put off posting bond for the time being. By the way, the EMT testified that Zimmerman’s face was 45% covered with blood before the EMT cleaned him up. Most of the money that Zimmerman got was placed in a special account, with someone else administering the funds, so he and his wife have no real access to it, except for 20k for living expenses. The rest was set aside for legal fees. The reason they took it out piecemeal from the Paypal account is that Paypal doesn’t allow large transfers. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2826 "2012-06-29T17:49:40Z")
Some new news. After a two hour plus bail hearing, [a judge has delayed granting bail to George Zimmerman](http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/judge-delays-decision-george-zimmerman-bond-163325090.html), presumably to consider the evidence and statements presented by both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2827 "2012-06-29T17:56:48Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > … Most of the money that Zimmerman got was placed in a special account, with someone else administering the funds, so he and his wife have no real access to it, except for 20k for living expenses. … Do you have a cite for this. I read somewhere that there was a ‘legal defense fund’ set up in conjunction with his lawyers (whether O’Mara or the previous ones, I don’t know), which sounds like the kind of thing where Zimmerman’s use of the money would be restricted. But Zimmerman set up a second, personal, fundraising page, and I seriously doubt whether he would have restricted his own access to it. I believe this is the fund with the big money that they hid from the judge. However, I am willing to be educated that I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2828 "2012-06-29T18:04:12Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because it wasn’t reported as an emergency call and he wanted the police there ASAP. And/or to let the police know he had run into the person he reported earlier, and/or to give the police his exact location, and/or to let the police know the person he reported earlier was acting threatening. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2829 "2012-06-29T18:55:35Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Now, the gun is black. GZ was carrying it in a black waistband holster. It’s worn around the back, basically near your back pocket. If GZ was on his back on the ground, his body is pretty much resting on top of the gun. Check out the re-enactment video, and you’ll see that GZ reaches behind him to indicate where his gun was. > > Now, you tell me how Martin was supposed to see this black gun, in a black holster, which is underneath GZ. In the dark. > o pull the gun out of the holster, aim, and shoot a perfect shot. Unless GZ’s right arm unhinges at the elbow, it’s physically impossible. His elbows would have to bend -out- to get to the gun - which means TM’s arm is no longer restrained. [/SIZE][/FONT] That is incorrect. Zimmerman was carrying the pistol on his hip. Martin could have seen it. It was dark and Zimmerman might have been mistaken about Martin reaching for the firearm, but legally It doesn’t make any difference. Without Martin’s fingerprint’s on the pistol, it can’t be proven one way or the other. If Zimmerman had already drawn his pistol and was pointing it at Martin, then you need to address the issue that Martin’s fingerprints weren’t on the pistol. Martin would have had plenty of time to try to get control of the weapon. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2830 "2012-06-29T19:23:05Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Some new news. After a two hour plus bail hearing, [a judge has delayed granting bail to George Zimmerman](http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/judge-delays-decision-george-zimmerman-bond-163325090.html), presumably to consider the evidence and statements presented by both sides. Actually I think it was because O’Mara had to redact some stuff before it could entered into evidence. I wasn’t aware that even though the judge had reviewed the discovery material he can’t really consider it as evidence until it is entered in as evidence by the court. De La Rionda needs to cut back on the histrionics and pretend he was addressing the judge and not the TV camera. He might have been hamming it up because Sybrina Fulton was in the court. I didn’t know the Paypal will only let you draw out $10,000 at a time. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2831 "2012-06-29T20:23:10Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > If Zimmerman had already drawn his pistol and was pointing it at Martin, then you need to address the issue that Martin’s fingerprints weren’t on the pistol. Martin would have had plenty of time to try to get control of the weapon. Who in the hell grabs a gun when it’s pointed at them? Do you really think this is how human instinct works? People held at gun point usually cower to the ground, attempt to run away, or freeze. What they _don’t_ do is intentionally bring themselves close to the weapon by reaching for it head on. The absence of Martin’s DNA on the gun in conjunction with the frantic yelling and the bullet in his chest leads me to believe Martin had frozen in place. He could have been laying on the ground or standing. I’m inclined to believe both guys were upright and essentially level with one another. The trajectory of the bullet was front-to-back, with none of the angles you’d expect if he was shot while laying down. And also, when Zimmerman reenacted how he shot Martin, his arm was fully extended in front of him. Why would he do this, if Martin had been stradding him? Such an important moment in the conflict for him to completely screw up. So I’m inclined to think this is actually how he shot the kid. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2832 "2012-06-29T21:19:59Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Who in the hell grabs a gun when it’s pointed at them? Do you really think this is how human instinct works? People held at gun point usually cower to the ground, attempt to run away, or freeze. What they _don’t_ do is intentionally bring themselves close to the weapon by reaching for it head on. > > The absence of Martin’s DNA on the gun in conjunction with the frantic yelling and the bullet in his chest leads me to believe Martin had frozen in place. He could have been laying on the ground or standing. I’m inclined to believe both guys were upright and essentially level with one another. The trajectory of the bullet was front-to-back, with none of the angles you’d expect if he was shot while laying down. And also, when Zimmerman reenacted how he shot Martin, his arm was fully extended in front of him. Why would he do this, if Martin had been stradding him? Such an important moment in the conflict for him to completely screw up. So I’m inclined to think this is actually how he shot the kid. If the gun was upholstered at that time, Trayvon wouldn’t have it pointed at him. The coroner’s report said front to back, it didn’t say whether it was straight or at an angle. You must understand that Zimmerman, like many Native Americans, (his adoptive father is white, his biological parents are likely Peruvian Indians, with some white and black mixture. He’s whiter than Sitting Bull, but probably not by much) has short arms, so he would likely have to straighten his arms. Trayvon with his longer limbed build could straddle Zimmerman and pound away without being hit back. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2833 "2012-06-29T21:33:40Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > If the gun was upholstered… No comment just had to enjoy this image of an upholstered gun. Yay, typos! Entertaining me for decades. sorry, carry on. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2834 "2012-06-29T21:37:45Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > The coroner’s report said front to back, it didn’t say whether it was straight or at an angle. the bullet entered on the right of the xyphoid process [Beeblebrox bone] and lodged after piercing the back of the left lung, iirc. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2835 "2012-06-29T22:01:03Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > You must understand that Zimmerman, like many Native Americans, (his adoptive father is white, his biological parents are likely Peruvian Indians, with some white and black mixture. He’s whiter than Sitting Bull, but probably not by much) has short arms… No, I don’t have to understand anything like this. But please keep on with these kind of arguments. If we were playing Limbo, the back of your head would be touching the floor and all of our mouths would be agape at your wondrous contortions. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2836 "2012-06-29T22:18:56Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Who in the hell grabs a gun when it’s pointed at them? Do you really think this is how human instinct works? People held at gun point usually cower to the ground, attempt to run away, or freeze. What they _don’t_ do is intentionally bring themselves close to the weapon by reaching for it head on. Somebody who slightly less stupid than someone who punches an armed man in the nose. > [@](#): > > The absence of Martin’s DNA on the gun in conjunction with the frantic yelling and the bullet in his chest leads me to believe Martin had frozen in place. He could have been laying on the ground or standing. I’m inclined to believe both guys were upright and essentially level with one another. The trajectory of the bullet was front-to-back, with none of the angles you’d expect if he was shot while laying down. And also, when Zimmerman reenacted how he shot Martin, his arm was fully extended in front of him. Why would he do this, if Martin had been stradding him? Such an important moment in the conflict for him to completely screw up. So I’m inclined to think this is actually how he shot the kid. Wow, you managed to come up with a theory that contradicts just about all the physical evidence and all the witnesses! I can’t wait to hear you explanation about why Zimmerman let Martin scream for 30 seconds and let some witnesses gather before shooting him. Or is your assumption that it was Zimmerman that was screaming? ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2837 "2012-06-29T22:31:53Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > the bullet entered on the right of the xyphoid process [Beeblebrox bone] and lodged after piercing the back of the left lung, iirc. Was that the lower, or upper part of the lung? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2838 "2012-06-29T22:32:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And/or to let the police know he had run into the person he reported earlier, and/or to give the police his exact location, and/or to let the police know the person he reported earlier was acting threatening. This is not the Pit, so I’ll keep it civilized…but who in their right mind starts searching for a phone to dial 911 when THE POSSIBLY ARMED HOSTILE DUDE IS STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU!!! Does Georgie expect us to believe that he thought Martin - someone that he thought was possibly on drugs, and possibly armed, someone he was so worried about that he didn’t want to say his address out loud to the dispatcher - was just going to stand their quietly while he called the cops to come pick Martin up??? This wasn’t a phone call to say that he had spotted Martin down the street, or had seen him running a certain direction. He wants us to believe he was going to dial 911 WITH THE BIG BAD BLACK GUY PROBABLY WITH A GUN RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > That is incorrect. Zimmerman was carrying the pistol on his hip. Martin could have seen it. It was dark and Zimmerman might have been mistaken about Martin reaching for the firearm, but legally It doesn’t make any difference. Without Martin’s fingerprint’s on the pistol, it can’t be proven one way or the other. If Zimmerman had already drawn his pistol and was pointing it at Martin, then you need to address the issue that Martin’s fingerprints weren’t on the pistol. Martin would have had plenty of time to try to get control of the weapon. No. It’s pretty unlikely he would be wearing it directly on the side, since it’s very uncomfortable. Secondly, wearing directly on your side is more noticeable, which kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry. But more importantly, we know where GZ was wearing his gun, because in the re-enactment video and in the video at the police station, he clearly reaches -behind- him when showing where his gun was. It was pretty much near his hip pocket..which is where most people with waist holders would be carrying it. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2839 "2012-06-29T22:52:21Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > If the gun was upholstered at that time, Trayvon wouldn’t have it pointed at him. The coroner’s report said front to back, it didn’t say whether it was straight or at an angle. You must understand that Zimmerman, like many Native Americans, (his adoptive father is white, his biological parents are likely Peruvian Indians, with some white and black mixture. He’s whiter than Sitting Bull, but probably not by much) has short arms, so he would likely have to straighten his arms. Trayvon with his longer limbed build could straddle Zimmerman and pound away without being hit back. Front to back is just coroner’s speak. When you plot the organs involved, the bullet went from Martin’s left chest to his right lung. It is confusing. It wouldn’t have killed them to include a diagram. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2840 "2012-06-29T23:01:34Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > … Martin … could have been … standing. I’m inclined to believe both guys were upright and essentially level with one another. The trajectory of the bullet was front-to-back, with none of the angles you’d expect if he was shot while laying down. And also, when Zimmerman reenacted how he shot Martin, his arm was fully extended in front of him. Why would he do this, if Martin had been stradding him? … That would explain why the only, the only, gun shot residue on Z was a tiny piece of lead on Z’s sleeve. CMC fnord! Of course it is possible that Z has one of those cool GSR repelling bellybutton piercings . . . but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2841 "2012-06-29T23:32:24Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > Was that the lower, or upper part of the lung? I got the R and L mixed up. I knew what I meant. :smack: > **[Documents in the Trayvon Martin Case](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-documents.html?ref=us)** > > The special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin murder case, Angela B. Corey, released a trove of photographs and documents, many with redactions, that form part of the discovery process. Starting on page 125. page 127 in particular “right lower lobe” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=141) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=143)