# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 146
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2902 "2012-07-01T19:21:38Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Not only this, but Zimmerman’s gun was very small. “Tiney Niney” is it’s nickname. The butt would not have gone past Zimmerman’s waistband, if it had been holstered during the fight. > > I think Martin probably did see the gun. I think Zimmerman was foolish enough to have run after the kid while brandishing it. And a witness is on record saying she saw someone with a flashlight running. Anyone who can’t imagine that Zimmerman would be so stupid and impulsive to do such a crazy thing just isn’t paying attention. That was witness #2 and she never said she saw anybody brandishing a firearm and now she she says she never saw anybody chasing anybody. Witness 2 > [@](#): > > A young woman who lives in the Retreat at Twin Lakes community, where Trayvon was shot, was interviewed twice by Sanford police and once by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. > She told authorities that she had taken out her contact lenses just before the incident. In her first recorded interview with Sanford police four days after the shooting, she told lead Investigator Chris Serino, “I saw two guys running. Couldn’t tell you who was in front, who was behind.” > She stepped away from her window, and when she looked again, she “saw a fistfight. Just fists. I don’t know who was hitting who.” > A week later, she added a detail when talking again to Serino: During the chase, the two figures had been 10 feet apart. > \*\*That all changed when she was reinterviewed March 20 by an FDLE agent. That time, she recalled catching a glimpse of just one running figure, she told FDLE Investigator John Batchelor, and she heard the person more than saw him. > “I couldn’t tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white. I couldn’t tell you because it was dark and because I didn’t have my contacts on or glasses. \*\*… I just know I saw a person out there.” Since here house was south of where Martin’s body was found, then her statement is actually inconvenient for the prosecution. It would tend to favor the the “Martin doubled back” theory. Of course, she might have seen Mclendon chasing his dog. I don’t know which way the dog ran. [http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/witmap470.jpg](http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/witmap470.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2903 "2012-07-01T20:34:43Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Annnd what GSR was on Zimmerman? Huh? Are you doubting that Zimmerman was the one that shot Martin? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2904 "2012-07-01T22:45:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re just trying to marginalize the fact that there were multiple injuries. . Speaking of the margin, do you recall that the original investigation recommended charges against Zimmerman in part because those injuries were only “marginally consistent with his statement”? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2905 "2012-07-01T22:48:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The evidence is his injuries. When I was a kid I fell straight back on the cement hard enough to be knocked out cold. It did not break the skin. No blood. It takes some doing to break the skin. Uhh, so your evidence that he got two small cuts on his head from having his head violently slammed into the cement repeatedly while retaining consciousness is that you hit your head on cement once hard enough to lose consciousness, and it didn’t even break the skin. And you somehow think this “evidence” \*supports \*your conclusion? [cue Twilight Zone music] > [@](#): > > That’s complete nonsense. We know from eye witness and the 911 tape that this went on for a considerable amount of time. It wasn’t a tickle fight. Listen to what you’re saying: “a slightly broken nose”… “2 slightly black eyes”… “2 small cuts”… You’re just trying to marginalize the fact that there were multiple injuries. I don’t need to marginalize them, they speak for themselves. GZ’s unencumbered actions immediately afterwards, and his declining multiple recommendations to go to the hospital, speak for themselves, as well. It is you who is trying to quite unconvincingly exaggerate his “multiple injuries.” > [@](#): > > Much more believable to who? They’re both going to be biased toward their own story. Much more believable to people with a firm grip on reality and not some cheesy B-movie dialog. One version is from someone with great incentive to lie, and has been proven to do so repeatedly. The other version is from someone who has nothing to gain or lose by lying, hasn’t been shown to lie, and if they had been inclined to do so, could have lied in order to incriminate GZ _much_ more. > [@](#): > > The relevant part that’s common between both stories is who spoke first. You say this a lot. Why do you think who spoke first is significant? It is completely reasonable to speak first and ask why someone is following you when someone approaches you after they’ve been following you. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman’s account is much more likely given Martin’s behavior. So, GZ’s account of the dialog is much more likely given GZ’s account of TM’s behavior? Got it. Do you see your problem there? > [@](#): > > We know he was on top of Zimmerman which means he was able to knock him down which also indicates he sucker punched him. LOL, I’ll let that speak for itself and your powers of deduction. > [@](#): > > There is no reason Martin didn’t [go] home beyond a desire to confront Zimmerman. You don’t know what reasons he had. Maybe he wanted to smoke a cig, maybe he didn’t get cell phone reception indoors, maybe he didn’t want the weird, freaky guy who was following him to see where he lived. > [@](#): > > According to both accounts they had lost contact with each other and the time frame allows for Martin to safely return home. The same time frame allows GZ to safely stay in his car instead of following an innocent teenager on his way home. TM had much better reasons to be there than GZ did. > [@](#): > > Right, there’s no wounds of Martin except the gunshot wound. All the other injuries were of someone struck repeatedly. No, there really isn’t, no matter how much you wish it, and how often you repeat it. There is no evidence that TM struck GZ more than once on the nose. And please, keep saying that GZ’s own unsupported and contradictory statements are the evidence, because that only serves to prove my point about you. > [@](#): > > There is no indication that Martin was struggling against someone holding a gun. If Martin was on top struggling with a gun he would have had the advantage of the mass of his body to grab and push the gun away. Comedy. Gold. GZ himself said that TM tried to get the gun. So what he says is “evidence” except for when it’s inconvenient to your narrative? > [@](#): > > The evidence showed that he repeatedly struck Zimmerman. This is not up for debate. Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that’s how it works. I didn’t know that you get to completely make shit up, then declare it immune from debate. Forgive me. > [@](#): > > So the logical conclusion is that Zimmerman was the one doing the yelling and that’s what he testified to and the evidence of the call backs up his testimony. The logical conclusion from the unassailable “evidence” of whatever GZ says happened, except for the parts you find it convenient to dismiss. I’m starting to understand how this works, and it’s fascinating. > [@](#): > > Yes, ye was injured. Martin was not. One punch and one fall is fantasy given that we know this event went on for a significant period of time. And why would he need to go to the hospital? This keeps getting brought up. The concept behind self defense is to prevent life threatening injuries. It’s not a matter of his injuries being insufficient to claim self-defense, it’s a matter of his injuries NOT NEARLY matching up with the “GZ says so” evidence. > [@](#): > > The injuries are consistent with his account. Oooo, “Magiver says so” evidence! Is this up for debate? Oh wait, you already debated against yourself in the first few sentences of your post, so I guess so. > [@](#): > > And you keep using the word “facts” incorrectly. The word is “evidence”. In this case it starts with Zimmerman’s account which is then compared to other evidence. Too funny. I can’t top that, so I’ll let it stand in all it’s brilliance. Two can play this game: > [@](#): > > Was he struck down? It appears so. Was he struck down after trying to restrain TM? It appears so. > [@](#): > > Was Martin on top of him for an extended period of time hitting him? It appears so. Was Martin on top of him at some point and doing nothing but attempting to avoid getting shot and yelling for help? It appears so. > [@](#): > > Did he sustain injuries to his face and the back of his head? It appears so. Did GZ deserve a bunch to the nose for attempting to restrain TM for no good reason? It appears so. (And with that, Magiver, you’re free to respond and get in the last word, because I do not enjoy your circle dance and I’m done with it. I don’t know why I even bothered, since you do such a good job of arguing against yourself, you don’t need my help.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2906 "2012-07-01T23:06:53Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Speaking of the margin, do you recall that the original investigation recommended charges against Zimmerman in part because those injuries were only “marginally consistent with his statement”? No, the original investigation did not recommend charges against Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2907 "2012-07-01T23:36:30Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Uhh, so your evidence that he got two small cuts on his head from having his head violently slammed into the cement repeatedly while retaining consciousness is that you hit your head on cement once hard enough to lose consciousness, and it didn’t even break the skin. And you somehow think this “evidence” \*supports \*your conclusion? [cue Twilight Zone music] There has been a huge amount of digital ink spilled over the idea that Zimmerman was supposed to bleed like water over Niagara Falls or his wounds didn’t somehow count. I pointed out you don’t have to bleed at all to sustain a serious injury or more importantly, fear for a serious injury. His wounds indicate he was assaulted. They are consistent with his account. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2908 "2012-07-01T23:39:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > His wounds indicate he was assaulted. So do Martin’s. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2909 "2012-07-01T23:46:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So do Martin’s. So put it all together you have one person with wounds who was on the receiving end of another person without any wounds except a gun shot wound that occurred after an extended period of time. Conclusion, Zimmerman was assaulted and eventually shot the person assaulting him. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2910 "2012-07-01T23:48:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So put it all together you have one person with wounds who was on the receiving end of another person without any wounds except a gun shot wound that occurred after an extended period of time. > > Conclusion, Zimmerman was assaulted and eventually shot the person assaulting him. I don’t see how the former leads inescapably to the latter. That is why we have courts. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2911 "2012-07-01T23:57:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I don’t see how the former leads inescapably to the latter. That is why we have courts. Absent evidence to the contrary over what occurred in the the physical exchange prosecution doesn’t have a case. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2912 "2012-07-02T00:20:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, the original investigation did not recommend charges against Zimmerman. [Yes, they did.](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hCDquqJvUpKZzxsEYOIHlesbWpHQ?docId=95bf47330af248839f864d35362ea578) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2913 "2012-07-02T00:45:53Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > [Yes, they did.](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hCDquqJvUpKZzxsEYOIHlesbWpHQ?docId=95bf47330af248839f864d35362ea578) There is no “they”. The person responsible for bringing charges declined to do so. It’s the difference between an EMT and a Doctor’s opinion as to what treatment will given. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2914 "2012-07-02T01:47:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no “they”. The person responsible for bringing charges declined to do so. It’s the difference between an EMT and a Doctor’s opinion as to what treatment will given. There is a “they”. In this sentence, the subject is the original investigative team, who recommended charges to the state attorney based (in part) on how trivial Zimmerman’s injuries seem in contrast with what he said had happened. The ones you say ate totally consistent with his fantastic narrative. You can keep repeating that Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm, but it really is a stretch. You have to take Zimmerman’s tale as gospel, and it does not seem very plausible when considered with other evidence, including his injuries. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2915 "2012-07-02T01:50:11Z")
Aren’t y’all wondering why there seems zero talk about an immunity hearing? This whole thing is playing out like just normal self-defense case. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2916 "2012-07-02T02:24:47Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > There is a “they”. In this sentence, the subject is the original investigative team, who recommended charges to the state attorney based (in part) on how trivial Zimmerman’s injuries seem in contrast with what he said had happened. The ones you say ate totally consistent with his fantastic narrative. The person responsible for determining the viability of the case did not agree with the people who investigated the case. They’re different skill-sets. I understand that the detectives had a legal opinion but it’s not relevant. > [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > You can keep repeating that Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm, but it really is a stretch. You have to take Zimmerman’s tale as gospel, and it does not seem very plausible when considered with other evidence, including his injuries. It’s not a stretch to understand that getting repeatedly punched in the face and having one’s head struck against cement is a serious problem. Combined with the time frame involved in the assault there was no way Zimmerman could determine if and when the assault would end. This is the poster-child of defend-able situations. The prosecution has to prove that Zimmerman didn’t fear for his life after an assault that lasted a considerable amount of time. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2917 "2012-07-02T02:27:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The prosecution has to prove that Zimmerman didn’t fear for his life after an assault that lasted a considerable amount of time. No, they do not have to prove he didn’t fear for his life. They only have to show his fear was not reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2918 "2012-07-02T02:57:50Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I can’t say that I disagree with you on this. Apparently Martin got killed in Mayberry. I think Serino just screwed up this investigation. He had plenty of time to call the medical examiner after he interrogated Zimmerman and have them do the swabs before they even started their investigation. He still had time after he talked to Tracy Martin to get the swabs done before they released the body. I think I may need to apologize to the SPD. From what I read, the hands are bagged at the scene and the ME is responsible for collecting any evidence from them. I checked the evidence list and fingernail scrapings were collected by the medical examiner. Of course, if it was the SPD responsibility to notify the ME if they wanted data collected than wasn’t SOP, then I was right the first time. Fingernail clippings are SOP. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2919 "2012-07-02T03:12:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The person responsible for determining the viability of the case did not agree with the people who investigated the case. They’re different skill-sets. It’s not so much a difference of skills as a different set of motivations. There is a lot Of tutr-tutting about the possibility of the state prosecutor’s office electing to prosecute out of political consideration, but naturally the decision to dedicate resources to slam dunk cases over cases where there is more room for a not guilty verdict. Playing to stats is part of the game. But the point is that the injuries you point to as firm support for Zimmerman’s account really aren’t. Quite apart from that, other evidence makes his story extremely implausible. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2920 "2012-07-02T07:56:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > His wounds indicate he was assaulted. They are consistent with his account. No they don’t, and no they aren’t. Look at the video taken 45 minutes after the shooting. Look at the video taken 24 hours after the shooting, including the re-enactment video. Does that look like someone that had just been repeatedly punched in the face and head slammed into a cement sidewalk? The best evidence we have here is the detectives sitting across from GZ the very next day: They thought his wounds didn’t match his account of what happened. Finally - I can’t help but notice the deafening silence from GZ’s supporters on the massive holes in GZ’s story - I’ve pointed them out in post #[2802](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15220032&postcount=2802), #[2816](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15220765&postcount=2816), #[2837](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15222480&postcount=2837) etc. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/2921 "2012-07-02T13:39:17Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > [Yes, they did.](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hCDquqJvUpKZzxsEYOIHlesbWpHQ?docId=95bf47330af248839f864d35362ea578) There’s a world of difference between manslaughter and murder. Third degree manslaughter, as an example, is essentially a misdemeanor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=145) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=147)