# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/281 "2012-04-21T15:04:25Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > What I find entertaining is how information is presented with skewed perspective to assist in convincing of ones position. > > There are several things mentioned that have had 2 stories. Looks like people have latched on the side that matches their personal perception (I may even be guilty of this admittedly) > > Perceptions based on info (whether that info is accurate) > A > > 1. Zim was Ricky Rescue with a trigger finger > 2. Trayvon was just a sweet boy > > B > > 1. Zim was a responsible neighbor watcher > 2. Trayvon was a wannabe thug > > These tidbits of info that has been in the news are the basis of peoples claims. > > The funny thing is, in each sampling, they are good vs evil scenarios. What I havent seen is my Speculation > > C > > 1. Zim was Ricky Rescue with a trigger finger > 2. Trayvon was a wannabe thug > > JMHO, but this is what I believe was the scenario. These confronting aggressive personalities caused the powder keg to go boom I know that there is a lot of solid evidence for the portrayal of George Zimmerman as Ricky Rescue, can you share the copious matching evidence for Martin as a wannabe thug? Also, I don’t think that George Zimmerman’s desire to be Ricky Rescue was evil at all.I think it was incredibly stupid and led to his committing an evil act. And unless you produce some differing evidence, what I think of Trayvon Martin is that he was a perfectly average,normal, decent 17-year-old boy. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/282 "2012-04-21T15:04:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > He says on the 911 all that he followed him. I believe he claims he didn’t _approach_ Martin. Well we know he was following him some point. The question is, what did Zimmerman \*admit \* to doing so when his statement was taken? I don’t think we’ve seen evidence that he admitted to following Martin. He maintains the only reason he was out of his vehicle at the time he encountered Martin was because he needed to check a street sign. You still haven’t said whether you believe this. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/283 "2012-04-21T15:09:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Do you believe that if Zimmerman’s story is true, he should currently be a free man, and should face absolutely no consequences for his actions? Yes or no? Yes, I believe if he didn’t actively pursue Martin as he claims, he didn’t attempt to restrain or assault him in any way, and Martin launched a relentless, unprovoked attack against him that left him in fear for his life, I don’t think he should be convicted of any crime. But heres the thing: I don’t believe any of this. Now please answer my question to you: do you believe Zimmerman got out of his car to check a street sign, and that’s how he ended up encountering Martin? Yes or no? This isn’t a tricky question. Very straightforward. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/284 "2012-04-21T15:10:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Your question, as far as I can tell, is irrelevant to anything, so I’m not going to answer it. Okay, now THAT made me laugh out loud. You are glass, Steophan. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/285 "2012-04-21T15:11:53Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Ive seen Zimmerman, light skinned and hispanic looking are too very different things. > > Zimmerman does not look Caucasian. Now, Martin may have thought it useless to call the cops regarding a black vs hispanic issue, but quit with the light skinned crap. Lighter than Martin. How about you quit trying to derail the conversation with arguments about degrees of skin tone? It’s irrelevant to my argument as you yourself point out (“regarding a black vs hispanic issue”). Even if it was relevant, different photographs (and even different computer monitors) can render skin tone differently. [https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=zimmerman&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Wqc&rls={moz:distributionID}:{moz:locale}:{moz:official}&prmd=imvnsu&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=8MmST\_XyBsfz6QGe2ficBA&sa=X&oi=mode\_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAYQ\_AUoAQ](https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=zimmerman&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Wqc&rls=%7Bmoz:distributionID%7D:%7Bmoz:locale%7D:%7Bmoz:official%7D&prmd=imvnsu&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=8MmST_XyBsfz6QGe2ficBA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ) I haven’t seen Zimmerman in person, but I do know that there are caucasion hispanics and in at least some of those photographs Zimmerman appears to be as light skinned as I am. In any case, my argument is about Martin’s state of mind. We don’t know if Martin saw Zimmerman as hispanic but he almost certainly noticed that the man was lighter skinned than him. That could easily have made him hesitant to call the police. You seem to agree with my argument overall but then take issue with one point, and the way you take issue isn’t even correct. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/286 "2012-04-21T15:13:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yes, I believe if he didn’t actively pursue Martin as he claims, he didn’t attempt to restrain or assault him in any way, and Martin launched a relentless, unprovoked attack against him that left him in fear for his life, I don’t think he should be convicted of any crime. Good. Baby steps. Now let’s change the scenario - what if Zimmerman followed Martin, and even tried to restrain him. Then Martin launched that attack against Zimmerman, sitting on top of him and beating him, that left Zimmerman in reasonable fear for his life. Let’s say those two statements above are true. Do you think under current law he should be convicted? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/287 "2012-04-21T15:15:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If Martin is towering over him, and continuing to spray him, SYG doesn’t come into play. Zimmerman could shoot him under normal self defence rules. > > ETA That is, if the spraying gives rise to reasonable fear of serious injury or death. If not, it’s not a valid analogy. This is the part I’m trying to find an answer to. If … (‘If’ means I’m introducing a hypothetical here, not saying I know what happened)… If Zimmerman was committing a crime, could he then claim self-defense? It defies common sense to me, but we’re talking about Florida here, so common sense isn’t really a factor. If Zimmerman assaulted Martin, or attempted a kidnapping, or whatever other crime idiots who attempt citizen’s arrests or try to play cop commit, can he then shoot someone who is standing their own ground and claim self-defense? I hear lots of opinions that hedge on this question, but it seems to me this will be the heart of the state’s case. They will attempt to discredit his own statements, and then use the circumstantial evidence to show that he was committing a crime. But if he has a little booboo on his head, and can use self defense as an excuse even if he was committing a crime, then it seems like a conviction will be hard to come by. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/288 "2012-04-21T15:20:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Now let’s change the scenario - what if Zimmerman followed Martin, and even tried to restrain him. Then Martin launched that attack against Zimmerman, sitting on top of him and beating him, that left Zimmerman in reasonable fear for his life. Let’s say those two statements above are true. > > Do you think under current law he should be convicted? Yes, if he tried to restrain him, then SYG shouldn’t be at play. Restraint implies physical contact, which is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/289 "2012-04-21T15:25:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Yes, if he tried to restrain him, then SYG shouldn’t be at play. Restraint implies physical contact, which is illegal. And yet the law clearly says that in the scenario I described Zimmerman has the right to employ deadly force. Need I quote that part of the law again? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/290 "2012-04-21T15:30:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And yet the law clearly says that in the scenario I described Zimmerman has the right to employ deadly force. Need I quote that part of the law again? The part that I’m focused on is “even if he tried to restrain him”. If he tried to restrain him, that is assault. If he did restrain Martin, that is assault and battery. Both are illegal. Where in the law does it say that one can use SYG while in the commission of an illegal act? I’m not seeing this language at all. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/291 "2012-04-21T15:32:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Good. Baby steps. > > Now let’s change the scenario - I’m not answering any more of these kinds of questions until someone answers mine. Steophan obviously wasnt the right man for that Herculean task. Maybe you are brave enough. Do you believe Zimmerman got of his car, not to follow Martin, but to check a street sign? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/292 "2012-04-21T15:36:51Z")
Not only is there no evidence that Martin was a “thug”, but there is no evidence that his actions were unreasonable. None of us know how Zimmerman came up on Martin, or what his demeanor was, or exactly what he said. Or if he was displaying his weapon or not. All of these are factors that we’d need to know to really evaluate whether Martin was in the wrong for striking Zimmerman. We actually don’t have evidence that Martin struck Zimmerman. Zimmerman could have fallen on the sidewalk while pursuing Martin and busted his head that way. We have a witness that says he saw the two wrestling, but that is no evidence that Martin actually hit him. But I’m willing to accept this as a fact anyway. But it only means that Martin was standing his ground. Which is not illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/293 "2012-04-21T15:38:05Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > LI do know that there are caucasion hispanics. “Hispanic” is a made-up word. There are actually three distinct races: Negroid Mongoloid and Caucasoid. spanish-speaking people from South America can be anything from a purely Caucasian to some degree of Caucasian and Asian, since native Americans are considered Asian(mongoloid), and South American people are blended Spanish ( Caucasian) and native American (Asian). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/294 "2012-04-21T15:40:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you believe Zimmerman got of his car, not to follow Martin, but to check a street sign? There isn’t enough evidence available to be reasonably sure. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/295 "2012-04-21T15:41:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Are you really saying that Martin is at fault for his death for not calling 911? > > His girlfriend reports that Martin himself didn’t think the situation leading up to the altercation warranted running–that it was merely creepy behavior. No I was pointing out to Stoid that Martin wasn’t terrified by Zimmerman. One indication was the failure to call 911. The second indication was that he didn’t run home. > [@](#): > > Three things could have made him not want to call the police, beyond gender and racial/cultural stuff: 1) He’s in a strange neighborhood. How is he going to direct the police to his location? He’s also a kid. Maybe he doesn’t know that you can actually call 911 to report suspicious people…that 911 isn’t simply for reporting crimes. I know for a fact that I wouldn’t have known this at 17. Did you have a cell phone at 17? They didn’t have 911 when I was 17, but I don’t assume teenagers today are equally ignorant. Today teaching your kids about 911 is a basic for even small children. [http://kidshealth.org/parent/firstaid\_safe/emergencies/911.html](http://kidshealth.org/parent/firstaid_safe/emergencies/911.html) > [@](#): > > Part of understanding what is an emergency is knowing what is not. A fire, an intruder in the home, an unconscious family member — these are all things that would require a call to 911. A skinned knee, a stolen bicycle, or a lost pet wouldn’t.\*\* Still, teach your child that if ever in doubt and there’s no adult around to ask, make the call. It’s much better to be safe than sorry\*\*. > [@](#): > > 1. He’s almost home. He figures the creepy dude won’t be so brazen as to follow him to his house. 3) He’s on the phone with his girl. She’s tempering his fears and probably making him feel braver than he is. That’s why he tells her he’s going to “walk fast” instead of running. We also have to deal with the fact that Martin was 70 yards from Green’s house and stopped. There is no way that Zimmerman would catch up with Zimmerman unless Martin stopped. If he had kept walking, then he would have been home be before Zimmerman had come around the corner. I will concede that Martin didn’t want to appear like a wuss to DeeDee, but that isn’t a point in his favor. It makes it more likely he would confront Zimmerman when he could have easily avoided him. > [@](#): > > When he bumps into Zimmerman (assuming this is what happened), he’s caught off-guard. When you panic, your mind is reduced to single-track thinking. I think it’s a fair assumption to make that both guys panicked. Martin’s mode: “Keep scary dude off me!” Zimmerman’s mode: “Kill scary dude before he can kill me!” That scenario isn’t consistent with DeeDee’s report that they talked to each other before the fight started. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/296 "2012-04-21T15:42:43Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The part that I’m focused on is “even if he tried to restrain him”. If he tried to restrain him, that is assault. If he did restrain Martin, that is assault and battery. Both are illegal. > > Where in the law does it say that one can use SYG while in the commission of an illegal act? I’m not seeing this language at all. Right here: [Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html) 776.041 Unless you can dream up some scenario where Zimmerman was in the process of committing “forcible felony” when he encountered Martin, this section applies and in the scenario I gave above Zimmerman should walk. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/297 "2012-04-21T15:46:15Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > No I was pointing out to Stoid that Martin wasn’t terrified by Zimmerman. One indication was the failure to call 911. The second indication was that he didn’t run home. Wait… Are you a guy? Are you trying to claim that the only normal fear response from a guy is to run away or call 911? Give me a break. When guys are afraid they act tough! ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/298 "2012-04-21T15:49:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Right here: [Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html) > > 776.041 > > Unless you can dream up some scenario where Zimmerman was in the process of committing “forcible felony” when he encountered Martin, this section applies and in the scenario I gave above Zimmerman should walk. Sigh… What I believe, is that _ **he provoked** _ any violence against himself and that he did _ **not** _ exhaust all means of escape before resorting to deadly force therefore the self-defense defense is not available to him. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/299 "2012-04-21T15:49:37Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you believe Zimmerman got of his car, not to follow Martin, but to check a street sign? Given this exchange: 911 dispatcher: Alright, what address are you parked in front of? Zimmerman: Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. yes, it is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/300 "2012-04-21T15:51:21Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Sigh… What I believe, is that _ **he provoked** _ any violence against himself and that he did _ **not** _ exhaust all means of escape before resorting to deadly force therefore the self-defense defense is not available to him. When someone is sitting on top of you and beating you up, there is no reasonable way to escape. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=16)