# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 152
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3022 "2012-07-04T16:52:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > No, he says he was punched and fell backwards onto the ground. Trayvon got on top of him while he was down, and then started beating and slamming his head. > > Because I anticipate “CITE?!”, here you go: [http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/) > > He never mentions traveling, either being chased by Martin or rolling. You would think he would have done so in either case because both scenarios paint a spectacularly violent picture that would lend credence to his self-defense claim. I’ll ask you again for a cite. I’m not sifting through your unsupported link. 8 minutes into the [re-enactment video](http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012/06/21/us/100000001620280/zimmerman-reenactment.html)He specifically mentions being struck, stumbling then pushing Martin off before Martin gets on top of him. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3023 "2012-07-04T17:01:42Z")
**Magiver** , seems to me you’d want to pony up a dollar and actually examine the evidence before coming out in defense of Zimmerman. We aren’t talking about esoteric details here, but stuff that’s common knowledge to anyone half-way paying attention to this case. But since you need your hand held, here: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47901164/ns/local\_news-miami\_fl/t/zimmermans-statements-police-released/#.T\_R1kvXxyas](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47901164/ns/local_news-miami_fl/t/zimmermans-statements-police-released/#.T_R1kvXxyas) > [@](#): > > “The dispatcher told me not to follow the suspect & that an officer was in route,” Zimmerman wrote. “As I headed back to my vehicle the suspect emerged from the darkness and said ‘you got a problem’ I said ‘no’ the suspect said ‘you do now.’” > > Zimmerman said he tried to find his cell phone to dial 911 when Martin punched him in the face. > > “\*\*I fell backwards onto my back. The suspect got on top of me. I yelled ‘Help’ several times. The suspect told me ‘shut the (expletive) up’ as I tried to sit up right, the suspect grabbed my head and slammed it into the concrete sidewalk several times,” Zimmerman wrote. “I continued to yell ‘Help.’ Each time I attempted to sit up, the suspect slammed my head into the sidewalk. My head felt like it was going to explode.” \*\* Bolding mine. Are you caught up now? Do you have an explanation for this major discrepancy between Zimmerman’s story and the physical evidence, or do you want to dick around some more? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3024 "2012-07-04T17:02:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Cite that he was incapacitated from the initial blow. He never said Martin knocked him out. According to his video re-enactment he was sucker punched by Martin and a struggle ensued. Translated, he got his bell rung and struggled to the point where he was taken down. Do you think this requires standing in place? Interview with Detective Doris Singleton, audio files [here](http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/30-george-zimmerman-s-statements): > [@](#): > > Zimmerman: And he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down. Uhh, I tried to defend myself, he just started punching me in the face, and, uhh - > > Singleton: Were you still standing at this point? > > Zimmerman: No ma’am, - > > Singleton: OK > > Zimmerman: - _I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time_. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3025 "2012-07-04T17:19:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, it does. > This was explained to you before. The only injury on Martin apart from the gunshot wound that killed him was a scrape on one knuckle. Zimmerman’s broken nose and black eye suggest, therefore, that it was not an exchange of punches, but a sucker punch assault, consistent with Zimmerman’s account. Interestingly, that is not at all consistent with Zimmerman’s account. According to Zimmerman, he was punched in the nose, he fell down, and Martin ‘just started punching me in the face’. In other words - multiple punches. Your stance was that the ‘only a scrape on one knuckle is consistent with only one punch, which would have to be a sucker punch’. Let’s see you squirm your way around to making that one scrape on one knuckle (_below_ the knuckle, actually) consistent with Zimmerman’s actual story of sucker punch + multiple punches to a prone, helpless Zimmerman’s face. Good luck. > [@Shodan](#): > > Someone who is screaming for help because he is being beaten does tend to stop screaming when the beating ends. The scream ends mid-scream literally with the gunshot. Instantaneously. George says he didn’t think he had shot Martin yet, and he thought Martin was armed. So he goes from sheer, mortal terror, afraid for his life, defcon 3 alert, to ‘ok, I’m fine, I don’t need help now’ \*the exact instant he pulled the trigger \*even if the bullet hadn’t hit Martin? Is that really the stance you want to stand behind? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3026 "2012-07-04T17:19:37Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > There is other evidence of the fight starting near the T and ending up 50-60 feet down the path: George’s key chain was dropped fairly close to the T, while Martin’s body ended up down the path. Ergo - the struggle/fight/wrestling match started in one area and ended up in quite another. The fight started in front of unit 1211 and Martin was shot in front 1221. That is closer to 30 feet than 60. You can measure it in Google Earth if you want. Zimmerman pushed Martin off of him and depending on what the police and EMTs did with the body it might have ended up 40 ft from the T, but not more. Also by conceding that the fight started at the T, you are conceding that Martin confronted Zimmerman. To be consistent with DeeDee story the confrontation would have to happen no further North than 1221. [http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/twin400.jpg](http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/twin400.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3027 "2012-07-04T17:45:05Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Interesting. In the video re-enactment, Zimmerman first tells us that he forgot the name of the street he was on. You know, the same street HE LIVES ON. In a neighborhood with THREE STREETS. Why do you say that? He didn’t know the name of **Twin Trees**. He lives on **Retreat View**. He actually walked to Retreat View to get a house number. You guys keep saying Zimmerman is an idiot, but you expect Zimmerman to have an Eidetic memory and every flub is the result of malice instead of stupidity. From my experience, most people aren’t good at remembering or even knowing street names. I once mentioned a street name to my roommate and he asked me where it was. I told him it is the street he drives down every day to leave the subdivision. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3028 "2012-07-04T17:52:24Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The fight started in front of unit 1211 and Martin was shot in front 1221. That is closer to 30 feet than 60. You can measure it in Google Earth if you want. Zimmerman pushed Martin off of him and depending on what the police and EMTs did with the body it might have ended up 40 ft from the T, but not more. > > Also by conceding that the fight started at the T, you are conceding that Martin confronted Zimmerman. To be consistent with DeeDee story the confrontation would have to happen no further North than 1221. > > [http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/twin400.jpg](http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/twin400.jpg) If Martin had been at the top of the T, there wouldn’t be any reason to search for him, he would likely have been visible from the clubhouse. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3029 "2012-07-04T17:52:26Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The fight started in front of unit 1211 and Martin was shot in front 1221. That is closer to 30 feet than 60. You can measure it in Google Earth if you want. Zimmerman pushed Martin off of him and depending on what the police and EMTs did with the body it might have ended up 40 ft from the T, but not more. I have heard 40 and I’ve heard 50. Specifically “53”. We shall see which is closer later, but whether it’s 30 or 50, it’s still a considerable distance that does not square with the neat-and-tidy-scene that Zimmerman paints. > [@](#): > > Also by conceding that the fight started at the T, you are conceding that Martin confronted Zimmerman. To be consistent with DeeDee story the confrontation would have to happen no further North than 1221. What? How do one follow from the other? DeeDee was not there to observe “T’s”, street addresses, or anything else. If everything played out the way it did at 1221, you still need to explain how Zimmerman came to be ambushed all the way down there. There’s a reason why he said the fighting happened at the T. It puts him on the direct path back to his vehicle. If it happened further down the path, this indicates Zimmerman was not going back to his truck, but rather pursing Martin. In other words, it means he is a liar who is trying to cover up wrong-doing. He has demonstrated that he is quite able to lie to cover up wrong-doing. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3030 "2012-07-04T18:09:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I agree with **DragonAsh** about the importance of Witness 6. If Witness 6 indicates that the scene he saw happened at the “T”, then we’re left with just a couple of explanations about how the fight could have ended where it did. > > 1. The two didn’t actually encounter each other at the T. > > But then this begs the question of what Zimmerman was doing so far from where he said he was coming from. Not to mention, why would he so grossly underestimate the distance he traveled on that path? And why would his keys be left behind at the T? > > 1. The fight traveled down there from its initial starting place. But if we accept Zimmerman’s story as true, this couldn’t have happened because he was incapacitated after that initial blow to the face. 1. Martin staggered or crawled a few feet after he was shot. As he didn’t die instantly this is at least possible. I would expect Zimmerman to have mentioned it at some point, though. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3031 "2012-07-04T18:21:58Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Zimmerman said he was punched at the T and fell down shortly thereafter. Even if we allow that he stumbled a little down south before he fell, there’s still a problem. According to his video he was more inline with the tree to the right of the T. He said: “he punched me in the face, right up around here (indicating area near tree) to be honest I don’t remember exactly, I stumbled, I fell down and he pushed me down and somehow got on top of me… It was more over here, I was trying to push him away and then he got on top of me somewhere over here.” Where is the controversy? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3032 "2012-07-04T18:27:37Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > The scream ends mid-scream literally with the gunshot. Instantaneously. George says he didn’t think he had shot Martin yet, and he thought Martin was armed. So he goes from sheer, mortal terror, afraid for his life, defcon 3 alert, to ‘ok, I’m fine, I don’t need help now’ \*the exact instant he pulled the trigger \*even if the bullet hadn’t hit Martin? Is that really the stance you want to stand behind? yes. the fight would have stopped abruptly with the firing of the gun. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3033 "2012-07-04T18:35:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > 1. Martin staggered or crawled a few feet after he was shot. As he didn’t die instantly this is at least possible. I would expect Zimmerman to have mentioned it at some point, though. He wouldn’t have mentioned this because it contradicts what he said happened. According to Z, he shot the kid, who then sat up and said “You got me”, and Zimmerman knocked him to the side and straddled him. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3034 "2012-07-04T18:36:37Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Why do you say that? He didn’t know the name of **Twin Trees**. He lives on **Retreat View**. He actually walked to Retreat View to get a house number. > > You guys keep saying Zimmerman is an idiot, but you expect Zimmerman to have an Eidetic memory and every flub is the result of malice instead of stupidity. > > From my experience, most people aren’t good at remembering or even knowing street names. I once mentioned a street name to my roommate and he asked me where it was. I told him it is the street he drives down every day to leave the subdivision. Oh for cryin’ out loud. Have you -seen- a map of the area? There are only three streets in the entire neighborhood. Retreat View Circle is the main one. Guess what shape it is…that’s right it’s A CIRCLE. It loops the entire community. There are only two other streets: Long Oak Way is a minor cut-through south of the little pond in the community - it connects Retreat View Circle with Twin Trees - more on this below - which you have to turn on to get to S. Oregon Ave which is east of the community. The other main road inside the community is Twin Trees, which basically runs North-South through the entire community - you have to take Twin Trees to turn on to Oregon Ave, which is north of the community. Read that again: You CAN NOT drive in and out of the community without taking Twin Trees road. You’re telling me that George had lived in the community for three years, had been patrolling the area as head of the neighborhood watch program, didn’t know the name of one of two streets he had to drive on every day of his life to go anywhere? At one point GZ tells the detectives that he ‘knows all the residents’ of the community - ‘all the adults, all the kids’. But he can’t remember three street names? Why is this important? Because George, in his re-enactment, is using ‘I needed a street sign’ as his reason for getting out of the truck. For that, he has to feign not knowing the street. It’s a crock of shit, of course: The dispatcher doesn’t ask for an address etc. until well -after- George had already gotten out of his truck, when it’s clear he got out to chase Martin who had ‘run away’. > [@Magiver](#): > > According to his video he was more inline with the tree to the right of the T. He said: “he punched me in the face, right up around here (indicating area near tree) to be honest I don’t remember exactly, I stumbled, I fell down and he pushed me down and somehow got on top of me… It was more over here, I was trying to push him away and then he got on top of me somewhere over here.” > > Where is the controversy? You mean, besides the fact that he previously said that he had been knocked down with the first punch? > [@Magiver](#): > > yes. the fight would have stopped abruptly with the firing of the gun. Well, d’uh, of course the fight stopped abruptly. Martin was killed pretty much instantly. _But GZ didn’t know that, based on his own testimony._ What’s your explanation for George knowing that he didn’t need to shout for help anymore _the instant he pulled the trigger?_ ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3035 "2012-07-04T18:45:41Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > What’s your explanation for George knowing that he didn’t need to shout for help anymore _the instant he pulled the trigger?_ I think we are about due for **Magiver** to again declare, “It doesn’t matter.” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3036 "2012-07-04T18:49:34Z")
Here’s a [map](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2866450/posts). Based on the source, I don’t think it’s been rigged for Martin’s benefit. Can someone provide Zimmerman’s supposed path from his vehicle? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3037 "2012-07-04T18:54:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > According to his video he was more inline with the tree to the right of the T. He said: “he punched me in the face, right up around here (indicating area near tree) to be honest I don’t remember exactly, I stumbled, I fell down and he pushed me down and somehow got on top of me… It was more over here, I was trying to push him away and then he got on top of me somewhere over here.” > > Where is the controversy? What part of this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15237176&postcount=3020) are you not digesting? Look, I’ll spell it out step by step. Stop me when you get lost. 1. Z says Martin punched him at the T. 2. In his written statement and taped interview, he said he fell right after being punched. In his reenactment, he says he was pushed along/stumbled down a few feet south of the T. But ultimately in all of his accounts, he says he ended up on the ground and _stayed there until he shot Martin_. 3. Witness 6 says he saw the two wrestling on the ground. Where does he see this fight? In his interview with SPD, it seems as though he places the fight near the T. This makes sense because, given the limited visibility outside that night, the fight would have needed to have been near his back door for him to have even seen anyone. In Z’s reenactment, he also places the fight close to the T relative to where the kid was shot. 4. if Witness 6 is telling the truth, then Z’s story is false. W6’s account is evidence there were two phases to the fight: a wrestle match near the T and a one-sided gun fight 50 feet away. To get from phase 1 to phase 2, there had to have been a chase. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3038 "2012-07-04T19:09:16Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Oh for cryin’ out loud. Have you -seen- a map of the area? There are only three streets in the entire neighborhood… Retreat > Read that again: You CAN NOT drive in and out of the community without taking Twin Trees road. > > You’re telling me that George had lived in the community for three years, had been patrolling the area as head of the neighborhood watch program, didn’t know the name of one of two streets he had to drive on every day of his life to go anywhere? I’ve lived at my current residence for 20 years. couldn’t tell you the name of any of the streets other than the one I live on and the main road going by the community. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Why is this important? Because George, in his re-enactment, is using ‘I needed a street sign’ as his reason for getting out of the truck. For that, he has to feign not knowing the street. It’s a crock of shit, of course: The dispatcher doesn’t ask for an address etc. until well -after- George had already gotten out of his truck, when it’s clear he got out to chase Martin who had ‘run away’. He’s clearly trying to give directions to the dispatcher. He ends up giving physical directions without a street name. He doesn’t know the name of the street. It’s not up for debate or is there a debate in that fact. He also admits he was trying to locate Martin and when asked to stop said OK. Where is the controversy? > [@DragonAsh](#): > > You mean, besides the fact that he previously said that he had been knocked down with the first punch? He says he was knocked down and stumbles in the video. He then goes on to say he tried to push Martin away. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Well, d’uh, of course the fight stopped abruptly. Martin was killed pretty much instantly. Well duh to the person who thinks there’s a reason to continue yelling for help against someone beating him. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3039 "2012-07-04T19:10:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Here’s a [map](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2866450/posts). Based on the source, I don’t think it’s been rigged for Martin’s benefit. > > Can someone provide Zimmerman’s supposed path from his vehicle? Just before the incident, there’s a banging sound heard on the 9-11 tape. In the interview, Zimmerman said he tapped his flashlight because it wasn’t working. If it was the green dog pooper pickup near the top of the T, why would Zimmerman stop the chase long enough to bang his flashlight against something, since the body wasn’t found that far from the green dog toilet? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3040 "2012-07-04T19:12:07Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What part of this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15237176&postcount=3020) are you not digesting? Look, I’ll spell it out step by step. Stop me when you get lost. > > 1. Z says Martin punched him at the T. > > 2. In his written statement and taped interview, he said he fell right after being punched. In his reenactment, he says he was pushed along/stumbled down a few feet south of the T. But ultimately in all of his accounts, he says he ended up on the ground and _stayed there until he shot Martin_. > . I quoted the video. He said he was punched, stumbled and fell and then proceeded to push Martin off until Martin got the better of him. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3041 "2012-07-04T19:17:03Z")
You’re still not getting it. I give up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=151) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=153)