# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 153
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3042 "2012-07-04T19:40:52Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You’re still not getting it. I give up. What’s not to get. He was punched to the west of the T near the tree, he stumbles, there is a pushing match that moves it down to where Martin gets on top of him. This is where the eyewitnesses see him. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3043 "2012-07-04T19:44:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Here’s a [map](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2866450/posts). Based on the source, I don’t think it’s been rigged for Martin’s benefit. > > Can someone provide Zimmerman’s supposed path from his vehicle? His vehicle is parked at the curve closest to the cut through. According to his account, he walked from his car to the next street over via the cut-through and then back again and the sidewalk T is near where it started. He would have had his flashlight out looking for Martin at this point. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3044 "2012-07-04T19:56:46Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > If Martin had been at the top of the T, there wouldn’t be any reason to search for him, he would likely have been visible from the clubhouse. Martin **approached** Zimmerman at the top the T. He wasn’t standing there. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3045 "2012-07-04T20:03:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What’s not to get. He was punched to the west of the T near the tree, he stumbles, there is a pushing match that moves it down to where Martin gets on top of him. This is where the eyewitnesses see him. We don’t know where Witness 6 sees him, but this most surely will come out. What we do know it is more likely that Wit6 saw him at the T, where his back patio looks out at. He definitely would not have been able to see much if the fight had happened further down the path. If Zimmerman were a lying (but stupid) fella, it would make sense for him to put the entire fight at the T rather than further down. He would have remembered Wit6 being there to see Trayvon on top of him, which would have served as proof that Trayvon was the bad guy. It takes someone who is relatively quick on their toes, however, to remember that the location of shell casing is a good indicator of where the shooting actually took place. Let alone the fallen body. What you are not getting (or are you are pretending not to get) is that Zimmerman did not mention a shoving match at the moment when pinning down the key details are the most critical–right after it all happened at the police station. His written and verbal statement to the police say he was first punched and then fell onto his back. He does not say he got up on his feet. He does not say he was punched, pushed around, and then punched again for a final knock-out. There’s the initial punch that knocks him onto his back, then punchy-punch, slammy-slam, smothery-smoth, shooty-shoot. Dead, dead. Conveniently he leaves no room in his account for retreat. If the body had been found at the T, no doubt you would be using that as evidence that Zimmerman had been definitely painted in a corner. It is interesting that you mention that tree, however. I believe it’s possible that that is where Zimmerman received his head injuries. He probably slipped and fell against that tree. His head injuries are much more consistent with contact against a pointed object than a sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3046 "2012-07-04T20:11:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What’s not to get. He was punched to the west of the T near the tree, he stumbles, there is a pushing match that moves it down to where Martin gets on top of him. This is where the eyewitnesses see him. Does the eyewitness see him in the same location where Martin ends up dead? That’s the million dollar question. I’m betting the answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3047 "2012-07-04T20:12:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > His vehicle is parked at the curve closest to the cut through. According to his account, he walked from his car to the next street over via the cut-through and then back again and the sidewalk T is near where it started. He would have had his flashlight out looking for Martin at this point. Maybe this is just me being logical and stuff, but I don’t see how going through the cut-through will take me a street sign. The cut-through, which would have been dark and spooky, seems like the very worse route I’d take, given that there’s a punk lurking around whose location I don’t know. Why wouldn’t I walk to the intersection of Twin Trees and Retreat? Isn’t that the most logical place for a street sign to be? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3048 "2012-07-04T20:21:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > DeeDee said Martin was hiding. If the fight started at the top of the T, then either DeeDee is lying or Martin lied to her about hiding. If you look at the reenactment and the evidence found at the scene these are consistent. Zimmerman actually shows himself stumbling South until Martin pushes him down and gets on top of him. The fight starts by 1211 and ends up next door at 1221. W6 hears the fight start to the north of his townhouse and by the time he looks out they are by his townhouse. If the fight didn’t start at the top of the T, then why is Zimmerman’s light and keychain there? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3049 "2012-07-04T20:26:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I quoted the video. He said he was punched, stumbled and fell and then proceeded to push Martin off until Martin got the better of him. Ah, I see. So you’re just going to ignore any statement that George makes that contradicts the version of the story you’ve decided to hang your hat on. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3050 "2012-07-04T20:27:09Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I have heard 40 and I’ve heard 50. Specifically “53”. We shall see which is closer later, but whether it’s 30 or 50, it’s still a considerable distance that does not square with the neat-and-tidy-scene that Zimmerman paints. > > What? > > How do one follow from the other? DeeDee was not there to observe “T’s”, street addresses, or anything else. > > If everything played out the way it did at 1221, you still need to explain how Zimmerman came to be ambushed all the way down there. There’s a reason why he said the fighting happened at the T. It puts him on the direct path back to his vehicle. If it happened further down the path, this indicates Zimmerman was not going back to his truck, but rather pursing Martin. In other words, it means he is a liar who is trying to cover up wrong-doing. The Fight started near **1211** it finished at **1221** ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3051 "2012-07-04T20:31:52Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The Fight started near **1211** it finished at **1221** Making your font bigger only makes you look crazier, dude. If the fight started at 1211, that leaves quite a distant for shoving and pushing. I mean, with all that shoving and pushing, you’d expect both partners to have come back with more injuries. It doesn’t make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3052 "2012-07-04T20:32:56Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Ironically, Zimmerman’s reenactment tells us where witness 6 more than likely saw the two of them. He was near the T when he acted out the fight. So we don’t even have to speculate that much about where John will pinpoint the fight he saw. Cite? What I read said W6 **heard** them to the north of his townhouse. When he looked outside he \*\*saw \*\*them by his town house. This is consistent with Zimmerman and W11 at 1211. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3053 "2012-07-04T20:38:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Maybe this is just me being logical and stuff, but I don’t see how going through the cut-through will take me a street sign. The cut-through, which would have been dark and spooky, seems like the very worse route I’d take, given that there’s a punk lurking around whose location I don’t know. Why wouldn’t I walk to the intersection of Twin Trees and Retreat? Isn’t that the most logical place for a street sign to be? Because he wasn’t looking for a street sign, he was looking for an address. He was looking over there because he already knew the street name for that street. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3054 "2012-07-04T20:47:13Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > DeeDee said Martin was hiding. If the fight started at the top of the T, then either DeeDee is lying or Martin lied to her about hiding. If you look at the reenactment and the evidence found at the scene these are consistent. > > Zimmerman actually shows himself stumbling South until Martin pushes him down and gets on top of him. The fight starts by 1211 and ends up next door at 1221. W6 hears the fight start to the north of his townhouse and by the time he looks out they are by his townhouse. If the fight didn’t start at the top of the T, then why is Zimmerman’s light and keychain there? It’s not a function of lying or telling the truth. Dee Dee has know way of knowing what is going on unless Martin expressly tells her. If she says he says he’s next to his house, that is a specific. If she says he’s frightened, that’s an opinion. If she says he says he’s hiding after being next to his house then that means he’s gone back in the direction of Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3055 "2012-07-04T20:48:45Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because he wasn’t looking for a street sign, he was looking for an address. He was looking over there because he already knew the street name for that street. And the address he was looking for would bring the police to the parallel point next to the cut-through. they could have GPS’d right up to where he was standing. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3056 "2012-07-04T20:49:12Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because he wasn’t looking for a street sign, he was looking for an address. He was looking over there because he already knew the street name for that street. Just curious, since you seem to take his claim at face value and find nothing off about the idea he left his car to find an address that had nothing to do with his or Martin’s location. What address did he end up giving the dispatcher before he ended the call? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3057 "2012-07-04T20:50:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Making your font bigger only makes you look crazier, dude. > > If the fight started at 1211, that leaves quite a distant for shoving and pushing. I mean, with all that shoving and pushing, you’d expect both partners to have come back with more injuries. > > It doesn’t make any sense. What injury would be incurred from shoving? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3058 "2012-07-04T20:59:18Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Ah, I see. So you’re just going to ignore any statement that George makes that contradicts the version of the story you’ve decided to hang your hat on. Got it. How is it contradictory? Do you think he didn’t know where he was pinned on the ground? Where is the contradiction in the detail? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3059 "2012-07-04T21:01:51Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Just curious, since you seem to take his claim at face value and find nothing off about the idea he left his car to find an address that had nothing to do with his or Martin’s location. > > What address did he end up giving the dispatcher before he ended the call? He said right on the 911 call that he was looking for Martin and a street sign. What don’t you understand about this? Where is the controversy? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3060 "2012-07-04T21:09:10Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Cite? > > What I read said W6 **heard** them to the north of his townhouse. When he looked outside he \*\*saw \*\*them by his town house. You could listen to his interview [here](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/). Here’s a transcript that I took from another message board: > [@](#): > > FDLE: At this moment, the person on the top-- how were they positioned? On– > > John W6: The guy, on top, was on top of the other guy, vertically. > > FDLE: And-- And-- You’re going to have to maybe help me with-- with “vertically.” When-- what you’re saying, was he laying down? > > John W6: Yeah. Laying down. Yeah. They were on the ground. Like thi-- So if I’m standing up, and I lay completely down flat, face first, it’s pretty much like if you were on top of someone wrestling. They’re on their back. He’s on, ah-- You know, he’s on top of him. > > FDLE: Ok. And this is your first account, when you open the door. We’re still talking about the same event. > > John W6: Yes. > > FDLE: Ok. At that moment, when you look out, and you see this person on top in a-- in a laying position, what is happening? > > John W6: They’re struggling. That’s what mean by wrestling at that point. I can’t tell, you know, what is going on at that point. All I know is someone is on top of the other person and I hear “Help, help, help” yelled a couple times, and me just thinking that it is the person on the bottom yelling “help.” Because, you know, just-- if anybody saw that, they probably would have thought the same thing - that the person on the bottom is yelling “Help”. If you see two guys fighting. 'Cause I couldn’t see the front side of, ah, the Black male’s face. But I could see partial, you know, front side of the guy on the bottom because his face was facing this way when he was pushing up, er, you know, they were wrestling on top of each other. **And this-- and when I-- When I say how they were laying, the sidewalk out there does like this, they were at that, at that point. I don’t know if that will help.** bolding mine See in that last sentence where he talks about the sidewalk and how it “does like this”? We don’t know how he’s gesturing, but it’s quite reasonable to assume that he’s talking about the T. So let’s go with that for now. If he places the on-the-ground struggle at the T, that means there is 50 feet unaccounted for in Zimmerman’s story. There is no way he’s going to be able to hand wave this away in court. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3061 "2012-07-04T21:15:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He said right on the 911 call that he was looking for Martin and a street sign. What don’t you understand about this? Where is the controversy? LOL. You’re funny, **Magiver**! All along I was thought you were really defending Zimmerman, but now I’m catching on. You’re just pulling our legs. Right? Just in case I’m wrong, here’s a [link](http://phoebe53.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/zimmerman-911-call-transcript-trayvon-martin/) to the 911 transcript. Copy and paste where Zimmerman tells the dispatcher he’s looking for a street sign. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=152) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=154)