# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 159
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3162 "2012-07-06T16:03:39Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Also in the second bond hearing, Z’s attorney had a forensics auditor testify that all the money was accounted for. Z had not tried to hide a escape fund anywhere. He said anything about an “escape fund”? ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3163 "2012-07-06T16:05:14Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > What the heck is wrong with this judge? Z’s attorney took charge of the money right after the first bond hearing. It’s in a trust and Z doesn’t have any direct access to it. > > Also in the second bond hearing, Z’s attorney had a forensics auditor testify that all the money was accounted for. Z had not tried to hide a escape fund anywhere. > > After all that this, the crazy judge makes this ruling? I don’t get it. Yes, Z and his wife mislead the court in the first bond hearing. That’s exactly why the attorney had a forensics auditor testify in the 2nd one. So the judge knows he’s hearing the truth. > > [http://www.wftv.com/news/news/judge-decide-zimmermans-bond-fate-thursday/nPmYZ/](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/judge-decide-zimmermans-bond-fate-thursday/nPmYZ/) If the money was placed in a trust, wouldn’t the only way Zimmerman could get at it is to go to court and dissolve the trustee’s handling of funds? If that’s correct, it’s hard to believe Zimmerman would leave the country with no funds. The American courts would block any transfer overseas, or wherever he would have gone. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3164 "2012-07-06T16:12:41Z")
The guy went into hiding right after the shooting. Remember when his lawyers didn’t even know where he was? And that was before he had been charged with any crime. His ass needs to be grateful that bail was even on the table. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3165 "2012-07-06T16:16:28Z")
If the money was in a trust, then what was Shellie transferring around? Monopoly money? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3166 "2012-07-06T16:49:23Z")
Here’s the info on the trust. Why the judge ignored this is beyond me. The whole point of O’Mara’s argument was Z isn’t a flight risk. The judge poisioned the jury pool by openly accusing Z of planning to flee in his ruling. [http://www.wftv.com/news/news/george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-set-friday/nPhcB/](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-set-friday/nPhcB/) > [@](#): > > Zimmerman’s attorney has argued in court papers that he is no threat to the public and proved he wasn’t a flight risk by returning to jail when his bond was revoked. O’Mara also argued that _the bulk of the more than $200,000 raised by the website has now been turned over to a third-party administrator and Zimmerman has no control over the money._ > > Putting the money in a trust was smart because “now you can argue that the client does not have direct access to that money to flee the jurisdiction of the court,” said Blaine McChesney, an Orlando criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3167 "2012-07-06T16:56:52Z")
nevermind ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3168 "2012-07-06T16:58:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Here’s the info on the trust. Why the judge ignored this is beyond me. The whole point of O’Mara’s argument was Z isn’t a flight risk. Sheesh, are you being obtuse on purpose? Read what it says…the money \*has now been turned \*over to a trust. GZ doesn’t get a freeroll to try to dupe the court then get a mulligan after getting caught. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3169 "2012-07-06T17:10:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The guy went into hiding right after the shooting. Remember when his lawyers didn’t even know where he was? And that was before he had been charged with any crime. His ass needs to be grateful that bail was even on the table. If a person isn’t charged with a crime, he can go anywhere he damned well pleases. How is that evidence of hiding? Add the fact that the black panthers put a bounty on his head, I would be hiding as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3170 "2012-07-06T17:12:34Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > For every Casey Anthony acquittal, we can point to convictions with far less evidence than Zimmerman has against him. No, we cannot. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m glad the judge acknowledged the gravity of that second passport. To me, that’s bigger deal than the misstated finances. And to me. The money was serious, but the passport was an obvious and intentional deceit upon the court. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3171 "2012-07-06T17:15:04Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If a person isn’t charged with a crime, he can go anywhere he damned well pleases. How is that evidence of hiding? Add the fact that the black panthers put a bounty on his head, I would be hiding as well. He and his wife packed up shop the day after the shooting, before any “Black Panthers” had caught wind of this fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3172 "2012-07-06T17:22:13Z")
I don’t mind him packing up shop and leaving after the incident. But lying about the money and - more critically, the second passport - is a big-time red flag. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3173 "2012-07-06T17:34:30Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’m sure that every person out on bond has thought of plan b. Yes, he is an extreme dumbass for talking about it out loud. However, his actions show that he is not planning on going anywhere. No, his actions show that he was clearly planning to leave an option to evade the administration of justice if that suited him. The subsequent safeguards against that are his lawyers’ damage control, after his actions came to light. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3174 "2012-07-06T17:36:51Z")
I should clarify - I don’t mind him packing up and leaving town for a bit after the incident. But \*after he’s been charged, \*lying about the money and second passport is a big-time red flag. Or…what Larry Mudd said. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3175 "2012-07-06T17:38:47Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Sheesh, are you being obtuse on purpose? Read what it says…the money \*has now been turned \*over to a trust. > > GZ doesn’t get a freeroll to try to dupe the court then get a mulligan after getting caught. Now is slightly after the first bond hearing. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3176 "2012-07-06T18:08:21Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > Now is slightly after the first bond hearing. Cite for ‘now’ being ‘slightly after the first bond hearing’ and not ‘after getting busted on the PayPal account balance & transfers’. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3177 "2012-07-06T18:20:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, we cannot. You still haven’t answered any of the questions posed to you on the last page. They are the same questions I’ve asked since the beginning of this case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3178 "2012-07-06T19:48:19Z")
Sorry – missed these before… > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But they still have to prove murder otherwise there is still reasonable doubt for self defense. You have yet to explain how the mere assertion of self-defense would change the kind of evidence the prosecution needs to prove 2nd degree murder. > > Are you saying that proving murder is NOT tantamount to disproving self-defense? To my eye, they latter is achieved simultaneous with the first. Your eye is mistaken. In any criminal prosecution, the government has a list of elements of the crime. These are the specific things they must prove beyond a reasonable doubt. For an ordinary second degree murder case, they must prove: [ol] [li]The victim is dead.[/li][li]The death was caused by the criminal act of the accused.[/li][li]The death was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.[/li][li]The death occurred in the county and state of Florida that is trying the case.[/li][/ol] When self-defense is asserted, the element list changes: [ol] [li]The victim is dead.[/li][li]The death was caused by the criminal act of the accused.[/li][li]The death was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.[/li][li]The death occurred in the county and state of Florida that is trying the case.[/li][li]The accused did not reasonably believe that the act which caused the death was necessary to prevent death OR[/li][li]The accused did not reasonably believe that the act which caused the death was necessary to prevent great bodily harm to himself OR[/li][li]The accused did not reasonably believe that the act which caused the death was necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.[/li][/ol] Those two lists are different. > [@](#): > > In my hypothetical, would probable cause for 2nd degree murder be any different than that in the present case? How so? The State still has to prove all the necessary elements for that crime regardless of what excuse the defense comes up with. When the defense claims self-defense, the state must specifically disprove what the accused believed. That’s not the same as the defense claiming mistaken identity, or accidental gun discharge, or some other generic excuse. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3179 "2012-07-06T20:05:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When self-defense is asserted, the element list changes: > The victim is dead. > The death was caused by the criminal act of the accused. > The death was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life. > The death occurred in the county and state of Florida that is trying the case. \*\* > The accused did not reasonably believe that the act which caused the death was necessary to prevent death OR > The accused did not reasonably believe that the act which caused the death was necessary to prevent great bodily harm to himself OR > The accused did not reasonably believe that the act which caused the death was necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. \*\* Now explain how proving murder doesn’t simultaneously demonstrate all the items in bold. Because that’s the crux of the question: how does the evidentary burden for proving murder in a non self-defense case differ from proving murder in a self-defense case? I don’t think you can, to be honest. This is language that I cited in the previous Zimmerman thread that **monstro** started. From [Mullaney vs. Wilbur](http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/US/421/421.US.684.74-13.html): > [@](#): > > In this respect, **proving that the defendant did not act in the heat of passion on sudden provocation is similar to proving any other element of intent; it may be established by adducing evidence of the factual circumstances surrounding the commission of the homicide.** And although intent is typically considered a fact peculiarly within the knowledge of the defendant, this does not, as the Court has long recognized, justify shifting the burden to him. See Tot v. United States, 319 U.S. 463, 469, 63 S.Ct. 1241, 1245, 87 L.Ed. 1519 (1943); Leary v. United States, 395 U.S. 6, 45, 89 S.Ct. 1532, 1552, 23 L.Ed.2d 57 (1969). > > 34 > Nor is the requirement of proving a negative unique in our system of criminal jurisprudence.29 Maine itself requires the prosecution to prove the absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. See State v. Millett, 273 A.2d 504 (1971).30 Satisfying this burden imposes an obligation that, in all practical effect, is identical to the burden involved in negating the heat of passion on sudden provocation. **Thus, we discern no unique hardship on the prosecution** that would justify requiring the defendant to carry the burden of proving a fact so critical to criminal culpability. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3180 "2012-07-06T20:10:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When the defense claims self-defense, the state must specifically disprove what the accused believed. You say this like it’s a profound statement. The state can disprove what the accused believes in a self-defense case using the same dadgum evidence they’d need in a “I didn’t do it” case. This evidence can be from: Witness testimony that shows the accused behaved in criminal manner. Physical evidence that suggests the accused committed an unlawful offense against the victim. Circumstantial evidence that implicates the accused as the aggressor in the conflict leading to the victim’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3181 "2012-07-06T20:20:11Z")
[http://loop21.com/life/george-zimmerman-must-reveal-his-paypal-donations-judge-says](http://loop21.com/life/george-zimmerman-must-reveal-his-paypal-donations-judge-says) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=158) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=160)