# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 169
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3362 "2012-07-10T01:10:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re right. In fact I see another discrepancy… He’s STANDING. And he AIMED the gun. Are you actually agreeing with me or is this a whoosh? I honestly can’t tell. This thread has messed up my whoosh detector. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3363 "2012-07-10T03:55:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > **Are you actually agreeing with me** or is this a whoosh? > > I honestly can’t tell. This thread has messed up my whoosh detector. You know better. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3364 "2012-07-10T06:22:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I came across this blog posting that was linked to another message board I visit. According to the “about” page, the author is a former criminal defense attorney and law professor. > > [Did Zimmerman Confess When He Said, “I Took my Gun Aimed it at him and Fired?” | Frederick Leatherman Law Blog](http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/2012/06/29/did-zimmerman-confess-when-he-said-i-took-my-gun-aimed-it-at-him-and-fired/) > I seized upon the same oddness when Zimmerman reenacted the shooting. In the video, it’s clear that he fully extends his arm out in front of him. If Martin was on top of him, leaning over him due to his arm being pinned by Zimmerman, there is no way his arm could have been straight when he fired that gun into his chest. > > The author also echoes my concern over the front to back trajectory of that bullet. It seems to me that this first observation tends to assume “aiming” has a very specific meaning, as opposed to a synonym for pointing. That is, he assumes the word aiming means an extended arm or elbow. Why? It’s a good point for the prosecutor to bring up, of course, but I think Z can look dumb (no great stretch) and reply “Huh? I just meant I turned the end of the gun at him.” ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3365 "2012-07-10T08:36:21Z")
Does anyone have a link to evidence noting the location and trajectory of the bullet? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3366 "2012-07-10T08:42:21Z")
Bricker, what about this scenario: When George reaches into his pocket (to pull out his phone to dial 911), Martin thinks “sh\*\*, this guy that’s been following me around the last few minutes in his car, then got out of his car to chase after me, is now reaching for his gun!”. Decides he can’t outrun a bullet but thinks he might disarm George before he draws so he lunges at George, punches him in the face and tries to wrestle him to the ground. Rest unfolds broadly as discussed. Is George acquited? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3367 "2012-07-10T10:25:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > All \*\*Bricker \*\*did was explain what “beyond reasonable doubt” means. Do you think that people should be jailed for decades if reasonable doubt exists? “Jailed for decades”? Well, probably not. But can’t a rational adult think that there may be a reasonable doubt as to whether or not George felt a ‘reasonable fear for his life’ at the moment he pulled the trigger (so have to acquit for the murder 2 rap), but at the same time be damned certain that George created and escalated the whole situation by deciding in his head that Martin was a ‘suspicious guy’ that was ‘up to no good’, a ‘fuc\*ing punk’ that he tracked in his car then chased after on foot because he didn’t want him to be another ‘asshole that got away’? I mean, we kind of have a ‘middle ground’ of sorts with civil trials with lower burdens of proof, and everyone seems perfectly fine with that. Assuming that SYG immunity is not a factor in this case, the Martin family can sue George even if he wins the criminal case, correct? Sorry for the triple post… ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3368 "2012-07-10T12:24:35Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Does anyone have a link to evidence noting the location and trajectory of the bullet? iirc, the ME report in is this dump: > **[Documents in the Trayvon Martin Case](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-documents.html?ref=us)** > > The special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin murder case, Angela B. Corey, released a trove of photographs and documents, many with redactions, that form part of the discovery process. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3369 "2012-07-10T13:28:44Z")
Just when it seemed that discussion was about exhausted and people may have been contemplating leaving off beating their heads against the wall and waiting for the cussed trial, [new evidence is to be released](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-09/news/os-george-zimmerman-more-evidence-20120709_1_second-degree-murder-case-evidence-release) Thursday, including new witness statements, notes from investigators, and sketches. Wheeee! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3370 "2012-07-10T13:40:40Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Bricker, what about this scenario: > > When George reaches into his pocket (to pull out his phone to dial 911), Martin thinks “sh\*\*, this guy that’s been following me around the last few minutes in his car, then got out of his car to chase after me, is now reaching for his gun!”. Decides he can’t outrun a bullet but thinks he might disarm George before he draws so he lunges at George, punches him in the face and tries to wrestle him to the ground. Rest unfolds broadly as discussed. > > Is George acquited? What Martin thinks is not really relevant at George’s trial. What George feels, and how reasonable it is, is the only thing that is in play. If George reasonably felt in fear of serious bodily injury, then George is acquitted. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3371 "2012-07-10T13:46:12Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > The jury will get the impression that Zimmerman was in a scuffle. Witnesses will report an ‘argument’ or ‘scuffle’ or ‘wrestling’ lasting some 50 feet south from the sidewalk T. Witnesses will see there was a tree right smack in the middle of said scuffle. > > Jury will get the impression that Zimmerman’s injuries are pretty much consistent with a scuffle of that nature, and are hardly consistent with an account of ‘repeated blows to the face’ and ‘head repeatedly slammed into a cement sidewalk’. Considering that this particular ‘argument’ or ‘scuffle’ or ‘wrestling’ ended in someone’s death, would you, as a juror, consider that this was a simple “scuffle” instead of a life-or-death struggle? Zimmerman recieved multiple injuries from the attack. Martin had an injury to his hand and eventually, a hole in his chest, which stopped the attack. This wasn’t a “scuffle”, it was a beating. What would the next blow bring? Death, paralysis, crippling, blindness, unconsciousness? How long do you believe a person should allow themselves to be beaten before they resort to lethal force to save their own life? Should all street fights be stopped after four blows are struck so a medical tech can ascertain how much damage had been inflicted? Should everyone carry a whistle so they can stop street fights after four blows are struck? A street fight is a street fight. It doesn’t stop until someone quits or is unable to continue. Martin quit beating Zimmerman because Martin’s blood pressure was dropping rapidly and he was unable to continue beating Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3372 "2012-07-10T14:06:30Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Considering that this particular ‘argument’ or ‘scuffle’ or ‘wrestling’ ended in someone’s death, would you, as a juror, consider that this was a simple “scuffle” instead of a life-or-death struggle? Wow. Kafka would be proud. > [@](#): > > What would the next blow bring? Death, paralysis, crippling, blindness, unconsciousness? First, the injuries he had received are trivial. More importantly, the triviality of his injuries suggest that his narrative includes fictive elements. You cannot pretend that we’re talking about the savage beating he describes when what he describes is not reflected on his head. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3373 "2012-07-10T14:11:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It seems to me that this first observation tends to assume “aiming” has a very specific meaning, as opposed to a synonym for pointing. That is, he assumes the word aiming means an extended arm or elbow. Why? > > It’s a good point for the prosecutor to bring up, of course, but I think Z can look dumb (no great stretch) and reply “Huh? I just meant I turned the end of the gun at him.” True, but I think his use of the word “aim” in conjunction with how he acted it out during the reenactment will hurt the Z-ster. Throw in the 50 feet distance between the T and Martin’s dead body, the front-to-back trajectory of the bullet (this is one of the more damning pieces evidence, if you ask me), the superhuman contortions Zimmerman would have been required to do to even pull out his gun if he was lying on his back with a teenager straddling him and pounding his head in the ground at the same time, and I don’t think the prosecution will break a sweat proving Zimmerman’s account is false. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3374 "2012-07-10T14:14:58Z")
Where was the spent casing? Couldn’t its location give us an additional indication of where GZ was when he fired? ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3375 "2012-07-10T14:32:20Z")
Underneath Trayvon. They found it when they moved his body. BTW **ywtf** , I’m still hung up on the knockout. There was an article that started with ‘With one punch.’ And IIRC it came out before we had any of Zimmerman’s official statement. Big discrepancy between that statement and the re-enactment. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3376 "2012-07-10T14:37:48Z")
For some reason, I’m thinking it was found under Martin’s body. Don’t know why that idea is in my mind though. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3377 "2012-07-10T14:44:30Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Underneath Trayvon. They found it when they moved his body. IS this info in the inital discovery release pdf? Or where? > [@enomaj](#): > > BTW **ywtf** , I’m still hung up on the knockout. There was an article that started with ‘With one punch.’ And IIRC it came out before we had any of Zimmerman’s official statement. > Big discrepancy between that statement and the re-enactment. His written statement gives us that impression. “The suspect punched me in the face. I fell backward onto my back. The suspect got on top of me” Certainly sounds different from the re-enactment. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3378 "2012-07-10T14:52:13Z")
I see now, it says it was found “where the victim had lain”. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3379 "2012-07-10T15:09:46Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > … First, the injuries he had received are trivial. More importantly, the triviality of his injuries suggest that his narrative includes fictive elements. You cannot pretend that we’re talking about the savage beating he describes when what he describes is not reflected on his head. What injury would the next blow bring? Zimmerman certainly could not stop the last blow, that’s already happened. Zimmerman could certainly stop the next blow, and according to FLA law, Zimmerman could use lethal force if he believed that his life was in danger. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3380 "2012-07-10T15:14:42Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > … the front-to-back trajectory of the bullet (this is one of the more damning pieces evidence, if you ask me), How is this considered a “more damning piece of evidence”? Martin was shot while he was facing Zimmerman. He wasn’t shot in the back or thru the side. The two men were facing each other, at very close range, when the gun fired. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3381 "2012-07-10T15:47:51Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Does anyone have a link to evidence noting the location and trajectory of the bullet? There is no diagram. The ME shows the diagram with the location of the bullet wound in the left side of Martin’s chest. You have to note what organs the bullet passed though. The bullet ended up in the right lung. There is supposed to be more discovery evidence released Thursday. Maybe they will have a diagram. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=168) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=170)