# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/321 "2012-04-21T18:20:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What does that mean, specifically? How would the police even diagnose a broken nose? Paramedics have the training to diagnose a possible broken nose. Don’t you find it odd that the police’s investigation didn’t entail them getting copies of medical records for Zimmerman? By the time the case was transferred to Corey, all of this shit should have been obtained weeks prior. _If_ it was deemed to be relevant. Perhaps the issue here is they didn’t–and still dont–think his injuries are all that relevant. Also, if the EMT noted that his nose appeared fine, the prosecutor might have found it unnecessary to go to Zimmerman for medical records. Any injuries documented after Zimmerman left the station could have been self-inflicted. No need then to trouble themselves with records that can’t be trusted when compared against other data. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/322 "2012-04-21T18:25:34Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > It doesn’t matter what happened after he left police custody. If he wanted his injuries documented he should have insisted on treatment before he was questioned. His injuries were documented. They are mentioned in the police report. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/323 "2012-04-21T18:28:45Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why would they need to ask Zimmerman for medical records, since the police are the official fact finders of an investigation? They should have documented his injuries if he had evidence of such. Zimmerman was treated at the hospital after his interrogation. That information is out in public. It is amazing that the investigators didn’t bother to subpoena the medical records and didn’t seem to be aware that they existed. Pure incompetence if true. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/324 "2012-04-21T18:30:01Z")
self-inflicted wounds? You ever try to punch yourself? It takes a lot of force to break a nose. I guess he allegedly pounded the back of his head into a wall too. The cops didn’t get Zimmerman checked at the hospital because they weren’t planning on charging him. They did a preliminary investigation, wrote down the wounds they saw, and let him go. In hind sight that was a mistake. A better investigation back then would have made Zimmerman’s defense easier. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/325 "2012-04-21T18:31:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Zimmerman was treated at the hospital after his interrogation. That information is out in public. It is amazing that the investigators didn’t bother to subpoena the medical records and didn’t seem to be aware that they existed. Pure incompetence if true. Nothing he said indicates they were unaware of these alleged records, only that they hadn’t seen them. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/326 "2012-04-21T18:33:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Nothing he said indicates they were unaware of these alleged records, only that they hadn’t seen them. Not only hadn’t they seen them, they didn’t even attempt to get them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/327 "2012-04-21T18:41:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not only hadn’t they seen them, they didn’t even attempt to get them. No, that was a clever lawyer trick. We don’t know THEY didn’t attempt to get them – we only know that particular investigator did not attempt to get them. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/328 "2012-04-21T18:42:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Right here: [Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html) > > 776.041 > > Unless you can dream up some scenario where Zimmerman was in the process of committing “forcible felony” when he encountered Martin, this section applies and in the scenario I gave above Zimmerman should walk. This is not at all as clear as you keep asserting that it is. First, it doesn’t take much imagination at all to “dream up” a scenario in which Zimmerman _was_ committing a felony. He had expressed displeasure that “these assholes always get away.” Personally, I think the most likely catalyst for the physical confrontation was Zimmerman attempting to physically restrain Martin until the cops showed up. Unlawful confinement is usually treated as misdemeanor… but if there’s a weapon involved, _hey, presto_, a felony. Of course, this wouldn’t be a cakewalk to prove, given that the only witness to the critical moments we know of is going to be sitting in the prisoner’s dock - but depending on how things fall, it is a possibility. If it is proven whose screams are heard on the 911 calls, this may go some way towards that. To me, they do sound more plausibly like the screams of a teenager who is being held by some armed nut than a grown man losing a fight - and I expect that this may be determined at trial. Second, the statute has significant qualifications which you seem to accept as being met, when this is not at all clear. We are talking about the justification of the use of lethal force. “Imminent danger of death or great bodily harm” is not the same thing as simply being on the losing end of a scrap. Did Zimmerman have a reasonable expectation that he was about to be _killed?_ I wouldn’t want to argue from that position. “Great bodily harm,” then? What is the general [definition](http://www.laaw.com/uofdef.htm)? > [@](#): > > “Great bodily harm” means bodily injury which creates a substantial risk of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily injury. (The cite references Wisconsin law for this definition, but my assumption is that Florida has a similar standard.) The law is not intended to allow people to use lethal force to come out of a run-of-the-mill scrap on top - that is ridiculous on its face. If Zimmerman is going to walk, he’s going to have to persuade the court that he had a reasonable belief that shooting Martin was the only way he could hope to avoid death or a feeding tube. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/329 "2012-04-21T18:42:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Paramedics have the training to diagnose a possible broken nose. Yup. What did the paramedics say? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/330 "2012-04-21T18:44:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not only hadn’t they seen them, they didn’t even attempt to get them. I think it’s pretty apparent that Corey’s office wasn’t interested in conducting a balanced investigation. She was picked to file charges, and that’s what she set out to do. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/331 "2012-04-21T18:45:37Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Second, the statute has significant qualifications which you seem to accept as being met, when this is not at all clear. We are talking about the justification of the use of lethal force. “Imminent danger of death or great bodily harm” is not the same thing as simply being on the losing end of a scrap. Did Zimmerman have a reasonable expectation that he was about to be _killed?_ I wouldn’t want to argue from that position. “Great bodily harm,” then? What is the general [definition](http://www.laaw.com/uofdef.htm)? (The cite references Wisconsin law for this definition, but my assumption is that Florida has a similar standard.) I have already quoted Florida case law that supports a bloody nose as being “serious bodily harm.” > [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > If Zimmerman is going to walk, he’s going to have to persuade the court that he had a reasonable belief that shooting Martin was the only way he could hope to avoid death or a feeding tube. Good luck with that. Absolutely incorrect statement of the law. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/332 "2012-04-21T18:45:45Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The cops didn’t get Zimmerman checked at the hospital because they weren’t planning on charging him. They did a preliminary investigation, wrote down the wounds they saw, and let him go. They kept him in custody for five hours and interviewed him multiple times. If they had decided from the beginning that they weren’t going to charge him no matter what he told them during that time, then we’re not just talking about incompetent police work. We’re talking criminal negligence. It was their job to document all the evidence associated with this incident, including Zimmerman’s injuries. If they didn’t do a thorough job of this, they need to be held accountable for this oversight. But the absence of documented injuries doesn’t mean the cops failed at their jobs. It could mean there was nothing, injury-wise, to document. Which would explain why the prosecutor didnt go hunting for Zimmerman’s medical records. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/333 "2012-04-21T18:46:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > His injuries were documented. They are mentioned in the police report. Yes, I remember when the story broke. It was stated that that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and blood on the back of his head. However, who knows what may have happened to Zimmerman’s nose after he left police custody? There is no reason for investigators to seek out those medical records. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/334 "2012-04-21T18:46:50Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > f Zimmerman is going to walk, he’s going to have to persuade the court that he had a reasonable belief that shooting Martin was the only way he could hope to avoid death or a feeding tube. Good luck with that. False. The prosecution is going to have to persuade the jury that he had no such reasonable belief. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/335 "2012-04-21T18:52:21Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > **cosmosdan** posted this link interesting bit of information from the hearing in the GD thread. Not sure if everyone saw this: > > > [@](#): > > > > But Gilbreath also described previously undisclosed evidence the state plans to present at Zimmerman’s trial, while under questioning from Rionda, the assistant prosecutor. > > > > Gilbreath testified that Zimmerman repeatedly contradicted himself while being interviewed by police and provided statements inconsistent with physical evidence and witness recollections. > > link: [Trayvon Martin Case: Judge Grants George Zimmerman Bail | HuffPost Voices](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html) > > I know its huffington post, so many will disregard everything in the article just for that, but this is simply a recounting of testimony. > > Does that sound like a guy who did nothing wrong? Or who believes he did nothing wrong even? I watched the bond hearing and read the transcript and I put little weight on Gilbreath statements. If they accept Martin’s Mother statement that her son was screaming and DeeDee recollections of dialog 5 weeks later when Zimmerman was interrogated an hour later. Then those would contradict Zimmerman, but those statements will be subject to cross-examination. Zimmerman’s family has already stated that it was Zimmerman screaming on the tape, so we get to court and have dueling mothers on the stand. After seeing O’Mara in action, I wonder if the state will put DeeDee on the stand at all. Even if the State can prove Zimmerman lied to the police, then people might remember from the Casey Anthony case that is a misdemeanor and she walked on the murder charge. Actually it sounds exactly like someone who believes he did nothing wrong and frankly not a very bright example. A prudent innocent person would have clammed up called for a lawyer. If you force someone to sit there and repeat a story over and over again, there will be inconsistencies. Anybody that tells the same story every time either has an eidetic memory or is a very skilled liar. Somebody who was planning to lie would have clammed until they worked out a consistent lie and practiced it. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/336 "2012-04-21T18:54:02Z")
This would be interesting. Send the over zealous prosecutor to jail for perjury in the arrest warrants. No, it won’t happen. But, I’m betting this murder case gets tossed out early. > [@](#): > > The arrest affidavit did not mention the photograph, or the bleeding, gashes, and bruises on Zimmermans’ head. Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School stated upon release of the arrest affidavit that it was “so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge … everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense.” > > After the release of the photo, however, Dershowitz went much further, telling Breitbart News that if the prosecutors did have the photo and didn’t mention it in the affidavit, that would constitute a “grave ethical violation,” since affidavits are supposed to contain “all relevant information.” > > Dershowitz continued, “An affidavit that willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affiant swears to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie." > **[Dershowitz Blasts Zimmerman Prosecution: 'Not Only Immoral, But Stupid'](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2012/04/20/dershowitz-prosecution-immoral/)** > > Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School told Breitbart News today, ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/337 "2012-04-21T19:03:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why would they need to ask Zimmerman for medical records, since the police are the official fact finders of an investigation? They should have documented his injuries if he had evidence of such. They didn’t need to ask Zimmerman, they just needed to send a court order to the clinic. That the didn’t was sloppy on their part and O’Mara was needling them. Sanford PD wouldn’t have have an MD on staff or an Cat Scanner or a MRI or X-Ray machine for people. If the medical exam had showed evidence of a concussion then O’Mara could challenged any statement Zimmerman made to the police. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/338 "2012-04-21T19:06:57Z")
Why would the arrest affidavit reference a photo supposedly taken by a neighbor, rather than…gee, I dunno… the police? Dershowitz’s argument is stupid because it entirely rests upon the assumption that this photo is legally admissible evidence. Can I also remind the gallery that Dershowitz defended OJ Simpson? Not that this necessarily mean he’s a liar who would come out in support of the devil just as long he got a paycheck for it, but…just sayin. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/339 "2012-04-21T19:07:22Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But the shooting occurred _behind_ the houses–the one place where you’re least likely to find house numbers. > > So even if you can buy that he had to exit his car to find an address (which is a stretch by itself), you have to reconcile this action with the location of the shooting. When he was talking to the 911 operator, he was still in front of the houses. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/340 "2012-04-21T19:15:19Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I watched the bond hearing and read the transcript and I put little weight on Gilbreath statements. If they accept Martin’s Mother statement that her son was screaming and DeeDee recollections of dialog 5 weeks later when Zimmerman was interrogated an hour later. Then those would contradict Zimmerman, but those statements will be subject to cross-examination. Zimmerman’s family has already stated that it was Zimmerman screaming on the tape, so we get to court and have dueling mothers on the stand. After seeing O’Mara in action, I wonder if the state will put DeeDee on the stand at all. > > Even if the State can prove Zimmerman lied to the police, then people might remember from the Casey Anthony case that is a misdemeanor and she walked on the murder charge. > > Actually it sounds exactly like someone who believes he did nothing wrong and frankly not a very bright example. A prudent innocent person would have clammed up called for a lawyer. If you force someone to sit there and repeat a story over and over again, there will be inconsistencies. Anybody that tells the same story every time either has an eidetic memory or is a very skilled liar. Somebody who was planning to lie would have clammed until they worked out a consistent lie and practiced it. So are you saying that the fact that he constantly contradicted himself, and that there is evidence that contradicts things in his statement makes it more likely that he’s telling the truth? So does that mean that if he never changed his statement and everything in evidence matched his statement that that would mean he was more likely lying? I really don’t see how the logic works here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=18)