# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 170
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3382 "2012-07-10T15:49:29Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > How is this considered a “more damning piece of evidence”? Martin was shot while he was facing Zimmerman. He wasn’t shot in the back or thru the side. The two men were facing each other, at very close range, when the gun fired. The ME’s report indicates the bullet’s path was horizontal. Meaning, parallel with the ground. If Martin was leaning over a supine Zimmerman when he was shot, it is much more likely the bullet would have entered at an upward, downward, or sideward angle. Him getting it in at a perfectly straight 90 degrees from that position is just one more improbability the jury will have to swallow. This trajectory is what you’d most likely see if both guys were perfectly parallel with one another (e.g. standing or kneeling in front of each other), with the shooter taking aim. Not just firing in the middle of a desperate struggle. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3383 "2012-07-10T15:52:23Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Considering that this particular ‘argument’ or ‘scuffle’ or ‘wrestling’ ended in someone’s death, would you, as a juror, consider that this was a simple “scuffle” instead of a life-or-death struggle? :rolleyes: Um, no - I’d consider it an argument / scuffle that should have ended as a scuffle and instead ended up with someone dead with a hole in their chest. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Zimmerman recieved multiple injuries from the attack. Martin had an injury to his hand and eventually, a hole in his chest, which stopped the attack. This wasn’t a “scuffle”, it was a beating. What would the next blow bring? Death, paralysis, crippling, blindness, unconsciousness? Yes, because the injuries he had were already sooooo life-threatening, he might have bled to death. I mean, he was bleeding so profusely that not a drop got on Martin or on George’s jacket, shirt, jeans or shoes. George repeats _several times_ that he was knocked down with the first punch - including in the audio recordig from his first interview the very night of the shooting. He says he fell -back- ‘in to the grass’. At no point in any of the interviews does he even mention any sort of 50-feet struggle down the path. It’s only when he gets to the actual site in the re-enactment that he probably realizes that ‘getting knocked down right away’ doesn’t really match ‘dead kid’s body is way down there’, so now it’s ‘I was trying to push him off me / we struggled’ etc. Other main thing is - in the re-enactment he says that Martin approaches him -from- the southeast. If that’s the case, Martin punching him should cause him to fall backwards to the northwest. How the struggle ends up going 50 feet directly south - somehow missing a tree that’s right in the way, btw - is a mystery. But I don’t think there’s any doubt the skercufflel at least started near the T, based on where various items of George’s were dropped. Although it’s odd that Martin’s grocery bag was found down the path, and Martin’s cell phone was found near the body. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3384 "2012-07-10T16:03:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I get that this is your opinion, but it’s an opinion that doesn’t find a ready analogue in the law. Zimmerman does not have, under the criminal law, an extra duty of care because he was the one with the gun. “The law, in its majestic equality, demands equal vigilance of the man with a 9mm pistol and the one wielding a bag of Skittles to ensure that whoever he points at doesn’t drop dead.” \* –Analtoe France\* ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3385 "2012-07-10T16:15:52Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > “Jailed for decades”? Well, probably not. Murder 2 (hell, even manslaughter conviction under the circumstances) in Florida carries decades-long sentences. > [@](#): > > I mean, we kind of have a ‘middle ground’ of sorts with civil trials with lower burdens of proof, and everyone seems perfectly fine with that. Civil trials don’t involve locking someone up for years and decades. > [@](#): > > Assuming that SYG immunity is not a factor in this case, the Martin family can sue George even if he wins the criminal case, correct? Under SYG they cannot. Without, they can. Good luck getting any $ out of him though. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3386 "2012-07-10T16:18:29Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The ME’s report indicates the bullet’s path was horizontal. Meaning, parallel with the ground. Only if Martin was perpendicular to it at the time he was shot. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3387 "2012-07-10T16:22:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Good luck getting any $ out of him though. Hey, if those donations keep coming in, they may just end up going right to Martin’s parents in the end. Wouldn’t that be some delicious irony for the Z supporters lol. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3388 "2012-07-10T16:24:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The ME’s report indicates the bullet’s path was horizontal. **Meaning, parallel with the ground**. > > If Martin was leaning over a supine Zimmerman when he was shot, it is much more likely the bullet would have entered at an upward, downward, or sideward angle. Him getting it in at a perfectly straight 90 degrees from that position is just one more improbability the jury will have to swallow. > > This trajectory is what you’d most likely see if both guys were perfectly parallel with one another (e.g. standing or kneeling in front of each other), with the shooter taking aim. Not just firing in the middle of a desperate struggle. “Parallel with the ground”??? What does the bullet path have to do with it’s relationship to the ground? Terminal ballistics suggests that the bullet entered from the front of the chest then mushroomed and fragmented along a straight path. The bullet struck the heart and a lung and a fragment punctured the other lung. External ballistics suggests that the bullet was fired from close range while the **weapon’s barrel** was pointed directly at chest/heart. The weapon, not the combatant’s wrists or arms or body positions. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3389 "2012-07-10T16:34:20Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > “Parallel with the ground”??? What does the bullet path have to do with it’s relationship to the ground? What does horizontal mean if you don’t have a reference point? The ground is that reference point. If you prefer, I could describe the bullet’s path as being perpendicular to Martin’s long axis. But that probably goes over your head too. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3390 "2012-07-10T16:34:45Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Hey, if those donations keep coming in, they may just end up going right to Martin’s parents in the end. Wouldn’t that be some delicious irony for the Z supporters lol. Really shouldn’t be laughing about anything about this topic, but… :D:D:D:D ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3391 "2012-07-10T16:40:41Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “The law, in its majestic equality, demands equal vigilance of the man with a 9mm pistol and the one wielding a bag of Skittles to ensure that whoever he points at doesn’t drop dead.” > \* > –Analtoe France\* Is the prosecution going to be calling Anatole France as a witness, **Vinyl Turnip**? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3392 "2012-07-10T16:45:21Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > …Yes, because the injuries he had were already sooooo life-threatening, he might have bled to death. I mean, he was bleeding so profusely that not a drop got on Martin or on George’s jacket, shirt, jeans or shoes. > > George repeats _several times_ that he was knocked down with the first punch - including in the audio recordig from his first interview the very night of the shooting. He says he fell -back- ‘in to the grass’. At no point in any of the interviews does he even mention any sort of 50-feet struggle down the path. Zimmerman wasn’t trying to stop the blows he had already recieved when he shot Martin. Zimmerman was trying to prevent being struck again. If new, credible, evidence comes to light that Zimmerman was not lying on his back when the shot was fired or that Martin was not on top of him beating him when the shot was fired, that will change my impression of what happened that night. Florida laws says Zimmerman is allowed to lethal force to defend his life. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3393 "2012-07-10T16:58:18Z")
The actual ME report on the path of the projectile: s > [@](#): > > Skin, left anterior; 5th intercostal space; pericardial sac; RIGHT VENTRICLE; RIGHT LOWER LOBE OF LUNG. [http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf) This translates into a projectile that is going from left side of Martin’s chest to the right side. BTW Biodigital Human is handy here since you can turn off the organ you aren’t interested in. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3394 "2012-07-10T17:02:53Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Hey, if those donations keep coming in, they may just end up going right to Martin’s parents in the end. Wouldn’t that be some delicious irony for the Z supporters lol. It would be ironic. But in terms of probability, I am not sanguine about this outcome. If Zimmerman is acquitted by reason of his self-defense claim, he will be immune from civil suit. > [@FSA § 776.032](#): > > (1)A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force… > . > . > . > (3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1). As I have mentioned before, this means that if the Martins were to sue Zimmerman, and he is acquitted at the criminal trial, not only is he immune from their suit, but he can recover his legal fees, costs, and lost wages from them. Which would, in my view, be a gross inequity. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3395 "2012-07-10T17:14:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What does horizontal mean if you don’t have a reference point? The ground is that reference point. > > If you prefer, I could describe the bullet’s path as being perpendicular to Martin’s long axis. But that probably goes over your head too. Eyewitnesses say Martin was over Zimmerman’s head. “Horrizontal to the ground” is your reference point. Martin’s torso could have been horizontal, vertical, or any angle in between relative to “the ground”. The barrel was pointed directly at the chest/heart area when the bullet left the muzzle. This bullets actual trajectory had nothing to do with the angle of the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3396 "2012-07-10T17:16:43Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The barrel was pointed directly at the chest/heart area when the bullet left the muzzle. Then how did it travel through the left side of his chest, through the heart, and stop in his right lung? That’s one Magic Bullet. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3397 "2012-07-10T17:20:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It would be ironic. > > But in terms of probability, I am not sanguine about this outcome. > > If Zimmerman is acquitted by reason of his self-defense claim, he will be immune from civil suit. > > As I have mentioned before, this means that if the Martins were to sue Zimmerman, and he is acquitted at the criminal trial, not only is he immune from their suit, but he can recover his legal fees, costs, and lost wages from them. > > Which would, in my view, be a gross inequity. I’ve already said that main target of any suit will be the homeowners association and as far as I know they have no protection from a law suit. A lot of black people are going to end up paying money to the Martin family if they win a civil suit. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3398 "2012-07-10T17:22:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Only if Martin was perpendicular to it at the time he was shot. And if Martin was perpendicular to the ground when he was shot, the vertical axis of Zimmerman’s gun would have most likely been \_\_\_\_ to Martin’s chest, for the bullet’s path to be straight and horizontal. You fill in the blank. Here are your choices. 1. Parallel 2. Perpendicular 3. at a 45% degree angle 4. at a 100% degree angle Zimmerman claims he was lying on the ground when he shot the kid. He claims he shot the kid while simultaneously pinning Martin’s arm with his shooting arm, which means Martin had to have been leaning over him at an angle. From this extremely close and uncomfortable position, how likely is it that Zimmerman would have pointed his gun at exactly the right angle needed to achieve the type of trajectory you’d usually see if the gun was aimed and fired from an upright position, at an upright target? Show your work. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3399 "2012-07-10T17:23:09Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then how did it travel through the left side of his chest, through the heart, and stop in his right lung? By following a more-or-less straight line. Bullets often do that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3400 "2012-07-10T17:33:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > “Horrizontal to the ground” is your reference point. Martin’s torso could have been horizontal, vertical, or any angle in between relative to “the ground”. The barrel was pointed directly at the chest/heart area when the bullet left the muzzle. This bullets actual trajectory had nothing to do with the angle of the ground. Just like I originally thought, this part of the conversation is going over your head. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3401 "2012-07-10T17:38:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then how did it travel through the left side of his chest, through the heart, and stop in his right lung? That’s one Magic Bullet. If you plot it out the trajectory of the bullet was only a foot or maybe a foot and a half. If was kind of a fluke, since it went between the ribs without touching them. Other than that, there wasn’t anything remarkable about the trajectory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=169) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=171)