# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 172
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3422 "2012-07-10T21:07:08Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Yes, but since they didn’t make any weapons charge, the item is presumably not relevant to the crime that _is_ charged. > > Calling Bricker – is _anything_ collected by the police considered ‘evidence’, or is it only evidence after one side or the other decide it’s relevant and try to introduce it as evidence during the trial? Interesting point. I assumed that since a firearm was used and it was being carried away from the home, the gun permit would be applicable as evidence that Zimmerman was legally carrying a firearm with the State of Florida’s OK. Not intending to speak for **Bricker** or anyone else, I’m assuming that the retention of this particular piece of information by the prosecution would be covered under State law/SA rules and regulations of evidence. It could be treated differently than, let’s say, a dozen shoes that had no bearing on the charges but only because FLA firearm laws/SA rules said so. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3423 "2012-07-10T21:57:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Easy. Martin leaning over Zimmerman at 45 degrees angle, and Zimmerman pointing the gun at 45 degrees. Or Martin leaning over Zimmerman at 60 degrees and Zimmerman pointing the gun at 30 degrees. Etc. Right. So Zimmerman, in the struggle of life, just coincidentally cocked his gun at an angle complementary with Martin’s position. And then hit him almost squarely in the center of his chest too. Not in his side, where his shooting arm was. Not in his torso or lower belly, where his shooting hand would have been closest. But rather, smack dab in the middle of his chest. I’d be interested in seeing someone act that out. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3424 "2012-07-10T22:12:01Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I’m wondering that too. Somehow I think if the prosecution interviewed Zimmerman’s neighbor who told them he was sure he was guilty because the Mole People from Planet RootCeller beamed the info to him through his clock radio … I don’t think they’d include that in discovery, “evidence” though it be. But… if the same person said they SAW Zimmerman shoot Trayvon like a dog in the street, and then later happened to mention that the Mole People from Planet RootCellar stopped by for coffee afterward, I think the prosecution might be interested in the first part, and the defense might be interested in the latter. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3425 "2012-07-10T22:14:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’ll come up in trial I suspect. We can see what the experts say then. > > Me, personally, think it’s quite precious to believe that Martin was shot in his upper chest–straight-to-back-- by someone who supposedly was in a supine position and who claims to have drawn his gun from his hip. The articulation of the human arm is quite extensive. Taking into account that there are three joints involved in pointing a firearm (not necessarily “aiming” a firearm), wrist, elbow, and shoulder, you should be able to point your finger, or a firearm, at every square inch of a hemisphere without moving your torso. Range of motion of a normal human wrist: Flexion - Normal flexion allows 80 degrees from the neutral position. The neutral position is when the hand is extended even with the arm. Extension - Normal extension is 70 degrees. RadialDeviation - This motion should measure 20 degrees at the end point for normal range of motion. Ulnar Deviation - The normal range of motion should be 30 degrees. Pronation - The normal range of pronation is 90 degrees. Supination - Normal range of motion for supination is also 90 degrees. > **[Normal Range of Motion of the Wrist | Livestrong.com](https://www.livestrong.com/article/93432-normal-range-motion-wrist/)** > > Injuries, repetitive movements, arthritis and neurological disorders all can affect wrist range of motion. Depending on the cause, certain exercises may help. Range of motion of a normal human elbow joint: Flexion - Is about 145 degrees. Extension - Would be 0 degrees or straight out/fully extended. > **[My Wrists Hurt While Swimming](https://www.sportsrec.com/429376-my-wrists-hurt-while-swimming.html)** > > Although swimming is a low-impact form of exercise, the repetitive motions can cause several types of painful overuse injuries, including wrist injuries. Fatigue and failure to use proper swimming techniques further contribute to wrist pain and... The extent of the range of human shoulder movement is found at the site mentioned below - Flexion and Extension Abduction and Adduction Rotation > **[How Has the Game Rugby Changed Over the Years?](https://www.sportsrec.com/351792-how-has-the-game-rugby-changed-over-the-years.html)** > > The story goes that a schoolboy named William Webb Ellis played a soccer match at Rugby School in England in 1823. During the game Webb Ellis picked up the football and ran -- giving birth to an entirely new sport. Though the story may be... ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3426 "2012-07-10T22:24:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Right. So Zimmerman, in the struggle of life, just coincidentally cocked his gun at an angle complementary with Martin’s position. Yes, usually, when you shoot at something/someone, you point the gun perpendicular to the target. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3427 "2012-07-10T22:27:45Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Yes, because the injuries he had were already sooooo life-threatening, he might have bled to death. I mean, he was bleeding so profusely that not a drop got on Martin or on George’s jacket, shirt, jeans or shoes. He’d already received a broken nose, and repeated blows to the head. Martin was continuing to attack him, so it’s certain he was in reasonable fear of death or serious injury. You do realise, I hope, that the danger from repeated blows to the head isn’t bleeding… Although his face was, in fact, covered with blood. He doesn’t have to have _already_ received the lethal injury to be entitled to use self defence, that would be somewhat pointless. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3428 "2012-07-10T22:50:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Right. So Zimmerman, in the struggle of life, just coincidentally cocked his gun at an angle complementary with Martin’s position. And then hit him almost squarely in the center of his chest too. Not in his side, where his shooting arm was. Not in his torso or lower belly, where his shooting hand would have been closest. But rather, smack dab in the middle of his chest. > > I’d be interested in seeing someone act that out. Zimmerman was carrying a 9mm Kel-Tec PF9 double-action-only pistol. You don’t “cock it” before firing but you do need to pull the trigger back to engage the transfer bar system and fire the pistol. You can act out the possible scenarios with the help of a friend who is willing to slap you around a little and a bar of soap, deck of cards, or pack of cigarettes to stand in for the pistols grip/handle. Lie down, let them straddle you, and see if you can reach the bar of soap. Pick up the bar of soap, point your index finger to simulate the pistol barrel, and see if you can point it directly at your friends chest. Take your time. it can be done. As a 2nd experiment, have your friend use two hands to try and take your make-believe pistol from you while you struggle to keep it. Does the barrel ever point directly at their heart? Try this again but only allow them to use one hand. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3429 "2012-07-10T23:12:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It would be ironic. > > But in terms of probability, I am not sanguine about this outcome. > > If Zimmerman is acquitted by reason of his self-defense claim, he will be immune from civil suit. > > As I have mentioned before, this means that if the Martins were to sue Zimmerman, and he is acquitted at the criminal trial, not only is he immune from their suit, but he can recover his legal fees, costs, and lost wages from them. > > Which would, in my view, be a gross inequity. are you referring to the costs of the current trial? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3430 "2012-07-10T23:21:09Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Interesting point. I assumed that since a firearm was used and it was being carried away from the home, \*\*the gun permit would be applicable as evidence that Zimmerman was legally carrying a firearm with the State of Florida’s OK. \*\* FYI: It’s not a gun permit that’s being talked about, it’s his \*application \*for a gun permit. The application includes questions about things like prior criminal charges, mental conditions, drug use, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3431 "2012-07-10T23:34:54Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > FYI: It’s not a gun permit that’s being talked about, it’s his \*application \*for a gun permit. The application includes questions about things like prior criminal charges, mental conditions, drug use, etc. Any charges Zimmerman had were expunged. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3432 "2012-07-11T00:11:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, usually, when you shoot at something/someone, you point the gun perpendicular to the target. Yeah, you point the gun perpendicular to the target because _most people shoot standing up_. That’s the whole fucking point. The trajectory of the bullet and it’s entry point are what you’d least expect if Z’s story is true. And at the same time, it’s what you’d most expect if both guys were standing apart from one another at arm’s length from one each other. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3433 "2012-07-11T00:19:25Z")
Even if charges are expunged they often need to be reported or there’s a catch-all question about being arrested etc. I’ve had to report my minor expunged misdemeanor to two state bars, several federal courts and when I obtained my CCP. All that for a $100 fine. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3434 "2012-07-11T00:24:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yeah, you point the gun perpendicular to the target because _most people shoot standing up_. That’s the whole fucking point. The trajectory of the bullet and it’s entry point are what you’d least expect if Z’s story is true. And at the same time, it’s what you’d most expect if both guys were standing apart from one another at arm’s length from one each other. You must be confusing a street fight with some kind of walk 10 paces, turn-and-shoot type dual. This shot was fired from less than 20 inches away. During a struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3435 "2012-07-11T00:32:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Any charges Zimmerman had were expunged. His situation would still make him ineligible for a concealed carry permit for three years, and even after that he would have to declare it. Since he has demonstrated a tendency to be less than forthright about that in very grave circumstances, I will not be terribly surprised to find that he lied on something as relatively casual as a CC permit application and was therefore not in fact legally permitted to carry. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3436 "2012-07-11T00:33:02Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You must be confusing a street fight with some kind of walk 10 paces, turn-and-shoot type dual. This shot was fired from less than 20 inches away. During a struggle. You’re making my point for me without even realizing it. The bullet doesn’t tell the story of a struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3437 "2012-07-11T01:07:22Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > His situation would still make him ineligible for a concealed carry permit for three years, and even after that he would have to declare it. > > Since he has demonstrated a tendency to be less than forthright about that in very grave circumstances, I will not be terribly surprised to find that he lied on something as relatively casual as a CC permit application and was therefore not in fact legally permitted to carry. You will be very disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3438 "2012-07-11T01:45:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You will be very disappointed. While I would not be surprised if he told the exact same lie he told when being booked into jail when he was filling out his application, I doubt I could muster up anything resembling actual disappointment if he managed to tell the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3439 "2012-07-11T02:08:05Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > While I would not be surprised if he told the exact same lie he told when being booked into jail when he was filling out his application, I doubt I could muster up anything resembling actual disappointment if he managed to tell the truth. No, this is why you will be disappointed: [http://app1.licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firearms/prequal\_questions.aspx](http://app1.licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firearms/prequal_questions.aspx) Which of these questions do you think Zimmerman would have had to lie about? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3440 "2012-07-11T02:15:17Z")
This clip of Zimmerman will be his downfall. The bullshit becomes extra rich at around 35 to 45 min in. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY) Cliff notes: 1. Zimmerman claimed his face was covered his blood during the fight so he couldn’t see much. Um, okay, how again did Martin come away with none of his blood on his hands or under his fingernails? And also you mean to tell me that despite all this bloodiness, none of this blood managed to splatter on Martin’s hoodie? Not even a single drop of it on his sleeves? 2. Zimmerman’s hands were not pinned during the fight. Apparently he was using his hands to fend his face against blows. How Martin managed to get past Z’s flailing arms and grab his slick (ground was wet, remember), bald and supposedly bloody head repeatedly, beats me. Not one defensive wound was found on Martin’s hands and arms either. Mysterious. 3. Zimmerman emphasizes that Martin was trying to suffocate him during the gun pull. He even gestured to show how Martin had his weight essentially resting on Zimmerman’s face, seeing as how Martin supposedly had one hand clamped over his mouth and his other hand supposedly trapped by Zimmerman’s shooting arm. The interviewer points out the obvious, that this position doesn’t leave a whole lot of space in between the two of them; Z agrees. But when Z pantomimes how he shot Martin, look at how he holds his arm. How much is his elbow bent, if at all? What’s his wrist doing? How in the hell did he shoot Martin in the chest if he was pointing the gun even remotely like that? 4. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Zimmerman intimates repeatedly that his gun was worn on his right back side. For instance, when the cops showed up, Zimmerman said he turned his back to the cop and raised up his jacket to show that he was armed. This implies the cop would have seen the gun from this position… Soooo, how again did he manage to pull out his gun while lying on the ground with a teenager on top of him?How again did Martin see this thing in the dark anyway? None of it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3441 "2012-07-11T02:16:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You’re making my point for me without even realizing it. The bullet doesn’t tell the story of a struggle. Your point was that the “ground” is horizontal. The bullet wound indicates that the two men were facing each other at close range when the bullet was fired. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=171) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=173)