# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 173
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3442 "2012-07-11T02:26:29Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Your point was that the “ground” is horizontal. I’m really glad you are not on my side during this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3443 "2012-07-11T02:30:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > …1) Zimmerman claimed his face was covered his blood during the fight so he couldn’t see much. > > 1. Zimmerman’s hands were not pinned during the fight. > …Not one defensive wound was found on Martin’s hands and arms either. Mysterious. > > 2. Zimmerman emphasizes that Martin was trying to suffocate him during the gun pull. He even gestured to show how Martin had his weight essentially resting on Zimmerman’s face, seeing as how Martin supposedly had one hand clamped over his mouth… > > 3. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Zimmerman intimates repeatedly that his gun was worn on his right back side. > …Soooo, how again did he manage to pull out his gun while lying on the ground with a teenager on top of him? 1. Not being able to see well means there was somthing in his eyes. 2. An eyewitness says Zimmerman was pinned down. Martin had a cut on one hand. 3. How do you tell the difference between someone trying to suffocate you and someone trying to prevent you from crying out to your neighbors for help? 4. Considering that he was fighting for his life, I assume he found a way to save his life. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3444 "2012-07-11T02:35:56Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > 1. Not being able to see well means there was somthing in his eyes. If there was so much blood that is was in his eyes, why didn’t any get on Martin? > [@](#): > > 1. An eyewitness says Zimmerman was pinned down. Martin had a cut on one hand. An eyewitness also identified Zimmerman as being on top of Martin. So much for eyewitnesses. > [@](#): > > 1. Considering that he was fighting for his life, I assume he found a way to save his life. Which is inconsistent with the circumstances he described. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3445 "2012-07-11T02:56:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, this is why you will be disappointed: > [http://app1.licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firearms/prequal\_questions.aspx](http://app1.licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firearms/prequal_questions.aspx) > > Which of these questions do you think Zimmerman would have had to lie about? Question 9 on the application. The instructions on the form itself state: “If you have had […] adjudication of guilt withheld for or had sentence suspended for one or more misdemeanor crimes of violence, you are NOT ELIGIBLE for a Florida concealed weapon license unless a period of three years has elapsed […] since any conditions set by the court have been fulfilled.” He assaulted the ATF officer in 2005, and started carrying in 2009. Depending on how long before his court date and the length of the program he had to complete, it’s possible he applied before the three years had elapsed. As I said, I will merely be unsurprised if he lied on the application. I would not be stunned or disappointed to learn he waited the required period. I am interested because the form is included with the prosecution’s evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3446 "2012-07-11T03:03:19Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > …As I said, I will merely be unsurprised if he lied on the application. I would not be stunned or disappointed to learn he waited the required period. I am interested because the form is included with the prosecution’s evidence. Oh man, I really _hope_ someone in the state bureaucracy looks up these applicants in a database and doesn’t just take their word that they have no disqualifying criminal record. If they don’t, if it’s just a rubber stamp process, then they may as well chuck the whole permit thing out for all the good it would do. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3447 "2012-07-11T03:48:20Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Question 9 on the application. The instructions on the form itself state: “If you have had […] adjudication of guilt withheld for or had sentence suspended for one or more misdemeanor crimes of violence, you are NOT ELIGIBLE for a Florida concealed weapon license unless a period of three years has elapsed […] since any conditions set by the court have been fulfilled.” Zimmerman’s case was dismissed and the record was expunged. That is not the same as “adjudication of guilt withheld” or “sentence suspended”. See [Zimmerman was arrested in 2005 for resisting an officer with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer. The case was dismissed because no evidence could be found. Zimmerman attended a pre-trial diversion program and a deal was made with his attorney to get the case dropped.](http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/Police-Hold-News-Conference-About-Teen-s-Death/-/14266478/13118978/-/item/2/-/13xpobdz/-/index.html) or [this site](http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/-have-you-ever-had-adjudication-of-guilt-withheld--798612.html) is you still maintain that Zimmerman’s case dismissal still required a “Yes” answer on that question. Disappointed yet? ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3448 "2012-07-11T03:54:55Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Oh man, I really _hope_ someone in the state bureaucracy looks up these applicants in a database and doesn’t just take their word that they have no disqualifying criminal record. If they don’t, if it’s just a rubber stamp process, then they may as well chuck the whole permit thing out for all the good it would do. So it looks like concealed carry permits are issued by the Dept. of Ag in Florida, and since they are not a law enforcement agency, they do not have access to criminal databases. The only word I can think of to describe this situation is retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3449 "2012-07-11T04:05:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Disappointed yet? Don’t have the potential for it, but thanks for the information. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3450 "2012-07-11T11:35:19Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Yes, but since they didn’t make any weapons charge, the item is presumably not relevant to the crime that _is_ charged. > > Calling Bricker – is _anything_ collected by the police considered ‘evidence’, or is it only evidence after one side or the other decide it’s relevant and try to introduce it as evidence during the trial? Generally, ‘evidence’ is a pretty broad term, and is used to refer to information collected before trial even if that information is never offered by either side during trial. From a constitutional perspective, the prosecution doesn’t have to turn over information that isn’t relevant one way or another. But Florida may have more stringent rules regarding discovery. I have not researched this aspect of Florida law yet. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3451 "2012-07-11T12:45:26Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Martin had a cut on one hand. A 1/32 in^2 abrasion iirc. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3452 "2012-07-11T13:13:58Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > Must be painful. sometimes Depends on an umber of things. When I was 28, it wasn’t as big of a deal as it is today. For me there’s a wide range of degree of pain involved which depends a number of factors. As a rule though, for me, the pain ruins from 0 to about 5 on a scale of 1 - 10 all depending on what I have been doing lately, how I slept last night and whether or not I have been on a bout of Aleve or not. In 89(?) when I first found Naproxen. Man, that was a red letter day. It wasn’t Aleve then, I got by prescription. But the profound difference between everyday constant pain [not a big pain, but fairly consistent one] and none is huge. There’s a though process and a cringe for every movement that involves the hips/lower back. LOL. Who thinks about standing up and walking? Life is great. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3453 "2012-07-11T13:19:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You’re making my point for me without even realizing it. The bullet doesn’t tell the story of a struggle. Let me see if I understand the point you’re making. If the gun was between the two bodies as they struggled, and Zimmerman fired, more or less at contact range, there’s theoretically a 180[sup]o[/sup] range of possibilities in play. That is, the bullet could have dug a narrow furrow along the outside of Martin’s body before heading off to break a streetlight, it could have narrowly penetrated, more deeply penetrated, gone straight through, deeply penetrated pointing the other way, narrowly penetrated, or skimmed a narrow furrow across his skin in the other direction. Maybe we could even eliminate the 30[sup]o[/sup] at each extreme, reasoning that Zimmerman wouldn’t pull the trigger unless it was more centrally pointed. That still leaves 120[sup]o[/sup] of arc that’s possible for the bullet path. That makes it somewhat suspiciously coincidental that the actual path is “straight” – that is, perpendicular to Martin’s long axis. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3454 "2012-07-11T13:32:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let me see if I understand the point you’re making. > > If the gun was between the two bodies as they struggled, and Zimmerman fired, more or less at contact range, there’s theoretically a 180[sup]o[/sup] range of possibilities in play. That is, the bullet could have dug a narrow furrow along the outside of Martin’s body before heading off to break a streetlight, it could have narrowly penetrated, more deeply penetrated, gone straight through, deeply penetrated pointing the other way, narrowly penetrated, or skimmed a narrow furrow across his skin in the other direction. It’s too early in the morning to parse what you’re saying, but it sounds like you’re talking about depth. I’m not concerned about depth; I’m concerned about the angle at which the bullet coursed through Martin’s chest relative to his long axis. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3455 "2012-07-11T15:13:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m concerned about the angle at which the bullet coursed through Martin’s chest relative to his long axis. According to the autopsy report, the bullet path was horizontal - that is, perpendicular to the long axis of Martin’s body. This has nothing to do with the ground. It also does not show that they were standing. It has entirely to do with the relative position of the gun muzzle and Martin’s chest, which can be achieved in a number of positions - standing, seated, Martin on top, Zimmerman on top, side by side, etc. It was, however, a contact or near-contact wound. Therefore, the two men could not have been at arm’s length, since the muzzle was apparently in contact with Martin’s clothing. That could not have been achieved at arm’s length unless Martin’s sweatshirts were the size of a circus tent. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3456 "2012-07-11T15:40:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > He’d already received a broken nose, and repeated blows to the head. Martin was continuing to attack him, so it’s certain he was in reasonable fear of death or serious injury. You do realise, I hope, that the danger from repeated blows to the head isn’t bleeding… Although his face was, in fact, covered with blood. > > He doesn’t have to have _already_ received the lethal injury to be entitled to use self defence, that would be somewhat pointless. Ah, the old ‘it could be the next punch that kills him!’ argument. Interesting. By your reasoning every fight on every junior high school playground across the country should reasonably and justifiably end up with one of the participants dead after the very first push /shove / punch. If George was actually ‘punched repeatedly in the face’ and his head was ‘repeatedly slammed into the cement sidewalk’ hard enough to make his head ‘feel like it was going to explode’, Martin is one weak-ass pussy, 'cause George’s head, face, next, hands all look to be in rather pristine condition for someone supposedly subject to such a savage beating. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3457 "2012-07-11T17:15:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > According to the autopsy report, the bullet path was horizontal - that is, perpendicular to the long axis of Martin’s body. **This has nothing to do with the ground**. (bolding mine) Gee, ya think? Can yall stop talking about the ground, please? “Parallel to the ground” is another way of saying “perpendicular to Martin’s long axis”. It should be clear that I’m not making any literal statements about the ground. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3458 "2012-07-11T17:56:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It was, however, a contact or near-contact wound. Therefore, the two men could not have been at arm’s length, since the muzzle was apparently in contact with Martin’s clothing. That could not have been achieved at arm’s length unless Martin’s sweatshirts were the size of a circus tent. > > Regards, > Shodan Of course this possible. What do you think “at arm’s length means”?! If Zimmerman stood right in front of Martin with his arm extended, aiming his gun at his chest, his clothes could have come in contact with the muzzle. Especially if they were literally at arm’s distance from one another. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3459 "2012-07-11T18:35:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s too early in the morning to parse what you’re saying, but it sounds like you’re talking about depth. I’m not concerned about depth; I’m concerned about the angle at which the bullet coursed through Martin’s chest relative to his long axis. I’m not talking about depth. I’m talking about the angle as well. Imagine the pistol held with the end of the barrel touching the victim’s navel. Now, still keeping the end of the barrel in contact with the navel, position the pistol so that a fired bullet would pass upwards into the body and pass through the heart before exiting the back. Now, still keeping the end of the barrel in contact with the navel, position the pistol so that a fired bullet would pass through the pelvis before existing the buttocks. Finally, still keeping the end of the barrel in contact with the navel, position the pistol so that a fired bullet would pass straight ahead, through the lower stomach and the spine before exiting the back. You’re pointing out (I think) that despite the wide range of possible angles between the first and second options I mentioned, the actual shot that killed Treyvon was very “level,” like the third shot I described. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3460 "2012-07-11T20:37:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You’re making my point for me without even realizing it. The bullet doesn’t tell the story of a struggle. The bullet track details are hardly definitive unfortunately. Also easily explained by shooter on his back with victim over him. Shooter brings gun up creating acute angle between gun and victim. Victim realizes what is about to happen, rears back in an attempt to flee, causing the angle between gun and victim to grow until perpendicular when the shot happens to be fired. Also explains the contact with the clothes but the distance from the skin. \_/- becomes \_|- ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3461 "2012-07-11T21:01:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re pointing out (I think) that despite the wide range of possible angles between the first and second options I mentioned, the actual shot that killed Treyvon was very “level,” like the third shot I described. > > Yes? Yes, this is sounds like what I’m saying, thereabout. But in framing this, I notice that you have the barrel flush with the target. That would make it a contact shot, which was not established by forsensics. Evidence suggests the bullet that hit Martin was fired at intermediate range. It seems quite easy to me make a bullet come in at a perfectly straight and horizontal if, Russian roulette style, you rest the muzzle flat against the body. What’s more difficult is doing the same thing while you’re lying on the ground with the guy you’re shooting leaning over you. While smothering you and also pounding your head in the ground. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=172) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=174)