# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 174
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3462 "2012-07-11T21:07:17Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > The bullet track details are hardly definitive unfortunately. Also easily explained by shooter on his back with victim over him. Shooter brings gun up creating acute angle between gun and victim. Victim realizes what is about to happen, rears back in an attempt to flee, causing the angle between gun and victim to grow until perpendicular when the shot happens to be fired. Also explains the contact with the clothes but the distance from the skin. > > \_/- becomes \_|- Zimmerman doesn’t say this is what happened, though. That’s the problem. Martin supposedly didn’t do any “rearing” back. He only sat up _after_ he was shot, according to Z. And all the times he’s acted the shooting out, he has always extended his arm in from of him. He has never bent his arm upwards or even put a tell-tale kink in his wrist to demonstrate how he could shoot someone in the chest with them practically laying on top of him. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3463 "2012-07-11T21:20:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And all the times he’s acted the shooting out, he has always extended his arm in from of him. He has never bent his arm upwards or even put a tell-tale kink in his wrist to demonstrate how he could shoot someone in the chest with them practically laying on top of him. There is always Poochey’s “Peruvians have short arms” explanation… > [@Poochey](#): > > You must understand that Zimmerman, like many Native Americans, (his adoptive father is white, his biological parents are likely Peruvian Indians, with some white and black mixture. He’s whiter than Sitting Bull, but probably not by much) has short arms, so he would likely have to straighten his arms. Trayvon with his longer limbed build could straddle Zimmerman and pound away without being hit back. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3464 "2012-07-11T21:26:16Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > The bullet track details are hardly definitive unfortunately. Also easily explained by shooter on his back with victim over him. Shooter brings gun up creating acute angle between gun and victim. Victim realizes what is about to happen, rears back in an attempt to flee, causing the angle between gun and victim to grow until perpendicular when the shot happens to be fired. Also explains the contact with the clothes but the distance from the skin. > > \_/- becomes \_|- Yes, possible, but also unlikely… in the struggle, the gun happened to fire at \_|- instead of any \_/- or \_- angle? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3465 "2012-07-11T21:32:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Zimmerman doesn’t say this is what happened, though. That’s the problem. Martin supposedly didn’t do any “rearing” back. He only sat up _after_ he was shot, according to Z. > > And all the times he’s acted the shooting out, he has always extended his arm in from of him. He has never bent his arm upwards or even put a tell-tale kink in his wrist to demonstrate how he could shoot someone in the chest with them practically laying on top of him. Thanks for pointing that out. I haven’t paid attention to his “explanations”. Sure sounds like he isn’t doing himself any favors if that is the case. Apologies if this was covered previously and I missed it. Maybe **Bricker** can answer to the admissibility of his re-enactments? Cause it sure sounds like he is making it harder for his attorneys to show reasonable doubt. He is acting like a character out of a bad street crime drama. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3466 "2012-07-11T21:37:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, possible, but also unlikely… in the struggle, the gun happened to fire at \_|- instead of any \_/- or \_- angle? It is as likely as any of the other angles in the 120° arc you described. Granted one would expect in most cases that the result would be an oblique angle. That is just because there are a lot more oblique angles than the one perpendicular angle. I didn’t think it proved much of anything at least not damningly. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3467 "2012-07-11T21:44:33Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Apologies if this was covered previously and I missed it. Maybe **Bricker** can answer to the admissibility of his re-enactments? Cause it sure sounds like he is making it harder for his attorneys to show reasonable doubt. He is acting like a character out of a bad street crime drama. :smack: Why wouldn’t his reenactments be admissible? He was read his rights. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3468 "2012-07-11T22:07:24Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/03/2880246/doctor-george-zimmerman-had-black.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/03/2880246/doctor-george-zimmerman-had-black.html) > George Zimmerman has sacroiliitis, which is inflammation of the lower joints, which likely would make it almost impossible to run fast, if he could run at all. Oh, you. He got his inflammation from the assault. He didn’t have it before hand. [http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman\_bond\_hearing\_exhibits/george\_zimmerman\_medical\_report.pdf](http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/george_zimmerman_medical_report.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3469 "2012-07-11T22:27:48Z")
There seems to be some confusion on the bullet angle. I set up this diagram. [https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bzn-XlBIM9nGYlNWUWdDRnZNX1E](https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bzn-XlBIM9nGYlNWUWdDRnZNX1E) The O is where the bullet entered and then went between the ribs and through the right ventricle. The main part of the bullet ended up in the pericardial sac behind the heart. Two other fragments passed through the right lower lobe of lung and ended up in right pleural cavity behind the lung. The bullet seems to have an angle from Martins left side to the right or it wouldn’t have entered the right lower lobe of the lung. It is hard to tell about the vertical angle without autopsy photos, except that it can’t be down or the bullet fragments would have passed below the lung. [http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/martin.autopsy.pdf](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/martin.autopsy.pdf) Go to page 3 and read the section labeled “Evidence of injury”. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3470 "2012-07-11T22:55:09Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > The bullet track details are hardly definitive unfortunately. Also easily explained by shooter on his back with victim over him.\*\* Shooter brings gun up creating acute angle between gun and victim. Victim realizes what is about to happen, rears back in an attempt to flee\*\* Victim couldn’t do much - George says he had his left arm pinned, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3471 "2012-07-11T23:47:37Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > It is as likely as any of the other angles in the 120° arc you described. Granted one would expect in most cases that the result would be an oblique angle. That is just because there are a lot more oblique angles than the one perpendicular angle. I didn’t think it proved much of anything at least not damningly. True… but think about this: in power, getting a straight flush, Ace of hearts high, is just as likely as get 2H, 4C, 7S, 8D, JS. Same thing here. Yes, any given angle is just as likely, but 90° is special, given that it’s also the angle we’d expect to see by aiming at a distance. So it’s an unusual coincidence that would not exist if the angle had been 44, 71, or 149. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3472 "2012-07-11T23:53:17Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Thanks for pointing that out. I haven’t paid attention to his “explanations”. Sure sounds like he isn’t doing himself any favors if that is the case. > > Apologies if this was covered previously and I missed it. Maybe **Bricker** can answer to the admissibility of his re-enactments? Cause it sure sounds like he is making it harder for his attorneys to show reasonable doubt. He is acting like a character out of a bad street crime drama. :smack: Sure, his re-enactment should be admissible. It’s hearsay, but an admission against interest, which is another exception to the hearsay rule. And if there are also parts that are not admissions against interest, they are covered by the res gestae rule. They could also be prior inconsistent statements for impeachment. Plenty of ways to get that in. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3473 "2012-07-12T00:11:50Z")
It’s also no small feat that Zimmerman was able to shoot Martin almost in the center of his chest, from the position he claimed, while simultaneously getting the bullet to course perpendicular to M’s long axis. I’m acting this out now. For him to have gotten this shot in, his shooting arm would have needed to have been curled inward, with his elbow pointing out to the side. At the same time, his gun would have needed to have been pointing at almost a right angle to his forearm. We’re talking about maximum extension of the wrist. Very awkward, in other words. And yet amazingly, he was able to pull this off _and_ manage to shoot in a straight, horizontal line. You would think, if he did this from such an awkward position, it would have made such an impression that he’d remember it during a reenactment only moments later. I mean, this was the fight of his life, you know. And yet he totally forgot to tell us that he contorted his body like someone with cerebral palsy when he shot Martin. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3474 "2012-07-12T00:32:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s also no small feat that Zimmerman was able to shoot Martin almost in the center of his chest, from the position he claimed, while simultaneously getting the bullet to course perpendicular to M’s long axis. > > I’m acting this out now. For him to have gotten this shot in, his shooting arm would have needed to have been curled inward, with his elbow pointing out to the side. At the same time, his gun would have needed to have been pointing at almost a right angle to his forearm. We’re talking about maximum extension of the wrist. Very awkward, in other words. And yet amazingly, he was able to pull this off _and_ manage to shoot in a straight, horizontal line. > > You would think, if he did this from such an awkward position, it would have made such an impression that he’d remember it during a reenactment only moments later. I mean, this was the fight of his life, you know. And yet he totally forgot to tell us that he contorted his body like someone with cerebral palsy when he shot Martin. Weird. Your statement is totally wrong. The angle is consistent with Zimmerman having his right arm cocked out and pointing the pistol toward Martin’s chest. The trajectory of the bullet The trajectory you are proposing is because of you are reading the ME report incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3475 "2012-07-12T00:46:36Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The bullet seems to have an angle from Martins left side to the right or it wouldn’t have entered the right lower lobe of the lung. Bullet fragments hit the lungs. But the core of the bullet was lodged in the pericardium behind the right ventricle. Ever take an anatomy lesson? Look at where the right ventricle is. It’s NOT in the right side of the chest. Its in the left, close to the midline. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3476 "2012-07-12T00:55:36Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Your statement is totally wrong. Talk to me about being wrong after you learn some basic human anatomy, okay? I love this, though. The internets have been talking about the front-to-back trajectory of this bullet for months. You need to do some homework if you’re going to try to correct people about facts and shit. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3477 "2012-07-12T01:04:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > True… but think about this: in power, getting a straight flush, Ace of hearts high, is just as likely as get 2H, 4C, 7S, 8D, JS. > > Same thing here. Yes, any given angle is just as likely, but 90° is special, given that it’s also the angle we’d expect to see by aiming at a distance. So it’s an unusual coincidence that would not exist if the angle had been 44, 71, or 149. As I pointed out in #3468 the bullet trajectory wasn’t 90° and in fact at an angle. The Front to Back in the ME report just seems to mean that bullet trajectory, if extended would have exited somewhere on Martin’s back. If the bullet trajectory had been 90°, then parts of the bullet wouldn’t have passed through Martin’s right lung. The trajectory also explains why Zimmerman wasn’t sure that his bullet had hit Martin. If Martin had sat up, then the bullet could have passed between Zimmerman and Martin. Maybe an actual diagram will be published tomorrow. We are supposed to be getting some more witness statements. I’m also curious about what the FBI has to say about the SPD. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3478 "2012-07-12T01:22:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Bullet fragments hit the lungs. But the core of the bullet was lodged in the pericardium behind the right ventricle. Ever take an anatomy lesson? Look at where the right ventricle is. It’s NOT in the right side of the chest. Its in the left, close to the midline. If the bullet was traveling at 45 degree angle it still would be in rear of the pericardium sac. Unless the rest of bullet made a sharp left turn, then there is no reason for the rest of the bullet to be in the right lung. The right ventricle is in my diagram. Maybe you take a physics lesson and explain why the rest of the bullet passed through the right lung without hitting a bone to deflect it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3479 "2012-07-12T01:24:04Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Zimmerman doesn’t say this is what happened, though. That’s the problem. Martin supposedly didn’t do any “rearing” back. He only sat up _after_ he was shot, according to Z. > > And all the times he’s acted the shooting out, he has always extended his arm in from of him. He has never bent his arm upwards or even put a tell-tale kink in his wrist to demonstrate how he could shoot someone in the chest with them practically laying on top of him. Just to be clear on this, you think the reenactment is a verbatim inch by inch, word by word construct? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3480 "2012-07-12T01:34:04Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Maybe you take a physics lesson and explain why the rest of the bullet passed through the right lung without hitting a bone to deflect it. Why don’t you tell me what this means to you, since you’re the only person on the planet who is making a case out of it. Bullet fragments can spray out anywhere, so who the fuck cares if they don’t hit bone and pass thru tissue? A horizontal trajectory clearly is causing you some cognitive dissonance, otherwise you’d find a way to make it fit with Zimmerman’s story just like you’ve done other inconsistencies and contradictions. So tell me, what will be your reaction if and when the ME confirms the bullet was perpendicular to M’s long axis? Will that cause you to reassess your opinion about Zimmerman? I doubt it so I don’t even know why you’re pressing the point so much. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3481 "2012-07-12T01:38:58Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Talk to me about being wrong after you learn some basic human anatomy, okay? > > I love this, though. The internets have been talking about the front-to-back trajectory of this bullet for months. You need to do some homework if you’re going to try to correct people about facts and shit. Look at the diagram I posted in #3468. Post your diagram. I did my research. Show yours. I actually learned quite a bit in the last few months. You apparently have learned nothing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=173) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=175)