# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 175
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3482 "2012-07-12T01:42:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Just to be clear on this, you think the reenactment is a verbatim inch by inch, word by word construct? Of course not. But what part of his shooting story do you think we should write off as a harmless mistake? The part where he said Martin had his hand clamped over his mouth until the very end? The part where he said he’d trapped Martin’s arm in between his shooting arm? The part where he said he forgot he was carrying his gun until Martin reached for it? The part where Zimmerman extended his arm out in front of him while reenacting the shot while at the PD? Then did the same thing the next day during the reenactment at the scene? Which part could we discard and still making the bullet’s path plausible? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3483 "2012-07-12T01:53:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Of course not. But what part of his shooting story do you think we should write off as a harmless mistake? > > The part where he said Martin had his hand clamped over his mouth until the very end? > > The part where he said he’d trapped Martin’s arm in between his shooting arm? > > The part where he said he forgot he was carrying his gun until Martin reached for it? > > The part where Zimmerman extended his arm out in front of him while reenacting the shot while at the PD? Then did the same thing the next day during the reenactment at the scene? > > Which part could we discard and still making the bullet’s path plausible? well lets see, it’s mostly dark, there was a person on top beating him and he managed to squeeze off a shot at close range after an extended confrontation. the trajectory of the bullet was direct front to back and it fragmented. What’s confusing you exactly? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3484 "2012-07-12T01:59:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > well lets see, it’s mostly dark, there was a person on top beating him and he managed to squeeze off a shot at close range after an extended confrontation. the trajectory of the bullet was direct front to back and it fragmented. > > What’s confusing you exactly? You didn’t answer my question. His story had details that need to be reconciled with the physical evidence. You can’t just brush them away just as soon as you discover they don’t fit in with the evidence. That’s called cherry picking. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3485 "2012-07-12T02:06:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You didn’t answer my question. His story had details that need to be reconciled with the physical evidence. You can’t just brush them away just as soon as you discover they don’t fit in with the evidence. That’s called cherry picking. reconcile against what? I just asked you if you thought the reenactment was verbatim. You said no. Do you think he has the slightest clue what the position of the gun was? There is literally nothing to cherry pick. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3486 "2012-07-12T02:11:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Do you think he has the slightest clue what the position of the gun was? Yes I do. He demonstrated it on video multiple times. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3487 "2012-07-12T02:27:54Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yes I do. He demonstrated it on video multiple times. It’s doubtful the best trained police officer could reenact a shooting situation in the detail you think Zimmerman is expressing or intends to express. It’s pretty clear that he didn’t reenact the fighting scene from the physical prospective because he’s standing when he narrates. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3488 "2012-07-12T02:28:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why don’t you tell me what this means to you, since you’re the only person on the planet who is making a case out of it. Bullet fragments can spray out anywhere, so who the fuck cares if they don’t hit bone and pass thru tissue? > > A horizontal trajectory clearly is causing you some cognitive dissonance, otherwise you’d find a way to make it fit with Zimmerman’s story just like you’ve done other inconsistencies and contradictions. So tell me, what will be your reaction if and when the ME confirms the bullet was perpendicular to M’s long axis? Will that cause you to reassess your opinion about Zimmerman? I doubt it so I don’t even know why you’re pressing the point so much. Bullets don’t make left turns in soft tissue and still have enough velocity to pass through the lungs and lodge in the pleural cavities. The ME made his report in March. You apparently are operating in a alternate reality where he didn’t file his report yet. What I’m shocked at is that people in this thread still don’t understand it. I didn’t understand it at first but people explained it to me back in May. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3489 "2012-07-12T03:45:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yeah, you point the gun perpendicular to the target because _most people shoot standing up_. That’s the whole :o point. The trajectory of the bullet and it’s entry point are what you’d least expect if Z’s story is true. And at the same time, it’s what you’d most expect if both guys were standing apart from one another at arm’s length from one each other. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Can yall stop talking about the ground, please? “Parallel to the ground” is another way of saying “perpendicular to Martin’s long axis”. It should be clear that I’m not making any literal statements about the ground. The bullet went straight in because that’s the direction the barrel was pointed when the weapon was fired. Part of the medical examiner’s job is to establish the cause of death, recover the bullet and bullet fragments, locate any gun shot residue on clothing and skin, and examine the entrance wound to establish the distance the weapons was from the body when the weapon was fired. It would be odd for the ME to determine if someone was pointing the gun perpendicular to the target because _most people shoot standing up_. What “most people do” doesn’t apply to the specific facts of this case. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3490 "2012-07-12T03:48:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yes I do. He demonstrated it on video multiple times. Is that why you believe Zimmerman and Martin were standing up when the shot was fired? ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3491 "2012-07-12T05:14:57Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Is that why you believe Zimmerman and Martin were standing up when the shot was fired? Well, from what I understand, there isn’t any evidence to suggest this was or wasn’t the case. As far as I know there aren’t any witnesses who were observing the altercation at the moment the shot was fired. All we have is Zimmerman’s account of what happened, he of course has a vested interest in portraying himself in the best light possible, so for the purposes of this thread it is fair to speculate either way. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3492 "2012-07-12T08:43:38Z")
According to George, Martin has been repeatedly punching him in the face. Slamming his head into concrete. He later states that he’s covered with blood. Martin has his hands over George’s mouth and nose. When he sees George’s gun, Martin starts to slide his hand down George’s chest towards the gun. Why didn’t Martin’s hand leave any blood on George’s shirt or jacket? I mean, there’s [not a spec of blood](http://baynews9.com/content/dam/news/images/2012/05/GEORGE-ZIMMERMAN-BODY-0517.jpg) to be seen. In addition to cleaning up George’s head, did the cops also send his clothes to a 60-minute dry cleaners? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3493 "2012-07-12T10:05:34Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Is that why you believe Zimmerman and Martin were standing up when the shot was fired? Well, I can make up a scenario that fits, at least. Martin was six feet tall. The gunshot wound was 17 1/2 inches from the top of his head. Or, in other words, the wound was 54 1/2 inches -from the ground- if Martin was standing up. George is 5’ 9", or 69 inches. Assume he had a gun in his hand, arm stretched out. On myself, I measured about 14 inches from the top of my head to the approx. height where the gun would be. Subtract 14 inches from 69, and the gun would be…55 inches from the ground. Now, not one witness has ever said they saw both Martin and George standing up at the same time at any time, so I don’t put much stock in the ‘both guys standing up’ scenario. But the measurements do kinda sorta add up \ ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3494 "2012-07-12T11:13:13Z")
I think it is more plausible that they were kneeling in front of each other. This would explain a lot of things. Like why Martin was found face down. If he was standing, it seems more likely he would have fallen on his back or side. Look at the clip that I posted on the last page. Another interesting detail is said by GZ. He said he had tried to avoid shooting his own left arm. Now why would that have been a concern? His left arm supposedly had been up near his face, fending off Martin’s tentacles. Here’s some speculation: the two were actually kneeling in front of each other at arm’s length from each other. GZ’s left hand was gripping Martin’s hoodie to keep him from running. His other arm was extended, aiming the gun at his chest. In this set up, I could see how the thought of GZ’s arm getting in the way of the bullet is reasonable. It is NOT reasonable in the story he told. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3495 "2012-07-12T11:22:43Z")
I think kneeling is a more likely explanation too. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3496 "2012-07-12T13:24:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Here’s some speculation: the two were actually kneeling in front of each other at arm’s length from each other. GZ’s left hand was gripping Martin’s hoodie to keep him from running. His other arm was extended, aiming the gun at his chest. In this set up, I could see how the thought of GZ’s arm getting in the way of the bullet is reasonable. It fits the angle of entry, works for the location, and also fits for the contact discharge at the clothing, but intermediate range for the wound. If Martin were pulling away and Zimmerman had hold of the hoody that would put some distance between Martin’s body and the clothing. > [@](#): > > I think it is more plausible that they were kneeling in front of each other. This would explain a lot of things. Like why Martin was found face down. If he was standing, it seems more likely he would have fallen on his back or side. I don’t know if the final position of the body says much. With no spinal injury it is unlikely that Martin expired instantly. Even from a standing position he could have turned to run and toppled forward, or went down to his knees. It doesn’t rule out the kneeling hypothesis, but doesn’t really do anything to re-enforce it either. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3497 "2012-07-12T14:23:14Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Well, from what I understand, there isn’t any evidence to suggest this was or wasn’t the case. As far as I know there aren’t any witnesses who were observing the altercation at the moment the shot was fired. All we have is Zimmerman’s account of what happened, he of course has a vested interest in portraying himself in the best light possible, so for the purposes of this thread it is fair to speculate either way. I suggest you read Witness #6. There is plenty of evidence that they weren’t standing up. If you can actually find enough time where both of them had time to get up, **while still screaming** and then Zimmerman shot Martin. Why would they continue to scream while they are getting up? [http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman\_bond\_hearing\_exhibits/witness\_6/Witness\_6\_FDLE\_Investigative\_Report.pdf](http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/witness_6/Witness_6_FDLE_Investigative_Report.pdf) You can speculate, but this isn’t a reasonable speculation based on the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3498 "2012-07-12T14:33:47Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Why didn’t Martin’s hand leave any blood on George’s shirt or jacket? I mean, there’s [not a spec of blood](http://baynews9.com/content/dam/news/images/2012/05/GEORGE-ZIMMERMAN-BODY-0517.jpg) to be seen. In addition to cleaning up George’s head, did the cops also send his clothes to a 60-minute dry cleaners? Because they did find traces of Martin’s blood on Zimmerman Jacket? There were over 30 blood stains on Zimmerman’s jacket, mostly from Zimmerman. Why don’t you try reading the evidence? Most of Martin’s blood either ended up on the ground or inside Martin. there was 2.3 liters of blood in Martin’s internal cavities. [http://princss6.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/blood-evidence.pdf](http://princss6.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/blood-evidence.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3499 "2012-07-12T14:48:16Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Why didn’t Martin’s hand leave any blood on George’s shirt or jacket? I mean, there’s [not a spec of blood](http://baynews9.com/content/dam/news/images/2012/05/GEORGE-ZIMMERMAN-BODY-0517.jpg) to be seen. In addition to cleaning up George’s head, did the cops also send his clothes to a 60-minute dry cleaners? Because they did find traces of Martin’s blood on Zimmerman Jacket? There were over 30 blood stains on Zimmerman’s jacket, mostly from Zimmerman. Why don’t you try reading the evidence? Most of Martin’s blood either ended up on the ground or inside Martin. there was 2.3 liters of blood in Martin’s internal cavities. [http://princss6.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/blood-evidence.pdf](http://princss6.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/blood-evidence.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3500 "2012-07-12T14:49:21Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because they did find traces of Martin’s blood on Zimmerman Jacket? There were over 30 blood stains on Zimmerman’s jacket, mostly from Zimmerman. Why don’t you try reading the evidence? > > Most of Martin’s blood either ended up on the ground or inside Martin. there was 2.3 liters of blood in Martin’s internal cavities. > > [http://princss6.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/blood-evidence.pdf](http://princss6.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/blood-evidence.pdf) But why wasn’t any of Zimmermans blood found anywhere on Martin? If he was trying to smash his head into the ground and smother Zimmerman with his hands while his face was 45% covered in blood, how did he manage to not get a single drop of Zimmerman’s blood on his hands? And if Zimmerman’s blood was all over his jacket and Martin was straddling/smothering/beating him continuously, how did not one drop of that blood transfer from Zimmerman’s jacket to Martin’s clothing? The savage and sustained beating narrative just simply does not fit the evidence, so I don’t know why you guys are treating it like established fact at this point. Its every bit the speculative narrative fitting without evidence that you constantly accuse the other side of IMO. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3501 "2012-07-12T15:00:59Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > I don’t know if the final position of the body says much. With no spinal injury it is unlikely that Martin expired instantly. His heart had been ripped apart by a hollow point bullet fired at close range. It wouldn’t be necessary for him to die instantly to simply collapse and stay there. With the sudden drop in blood pressure a bullet in the chest would cause, all he’d need to be is in a state of shock. > [@](#): > > Even from a standing position he could have turned to run and toppled forward, or went down to his knees. It doesn’t rule out the kneeling hypothesis, but doesn’t really do anything to re-enforce it either. You have a greater range of movement if you’re standing, though. From a kneeling position, the likelihood of turning and running is low; which means you’re pretty much left with toppling. If you’re on your knees, the risk of falling forward is high. Especially if you have a mad man holding on to you from the front. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=174) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=176)