# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 179
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3562 "2012-07-13T13:25:15Z")
I give up. See, **you with the face** , there’s going to be an actual trial. Actual instructions will be given to the jury. And those instructions will follow the lines I have discussed here. I refuse to spend any more time trying to educate you. When the trial happens, I’m sure you’ll have some explanation for why the court failed to give the instructions you think they should have. Perhaps the vast raciost comspriacy that has permeated this case will return to the bench, or something. You have never argued a single case at trial; never drafted a single set of proposed jury instructions, and never had a single day’s training in criminal law. But you can read, so you know best. Believe what you want. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3563 "2012-07-13T14:42:15Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > Ergo, your statement “the prosecution doesn’t have to prove anything about Zimmerman’s beliefs wrt fear towards Martin” is wrong as the prosecution must prove the “unlawfulness” of the action, and also then prove Zimmerman was not in reasonable fear if he was the initial aggressor and could not retreat. I don’t know what possessed you to post such a lengthy post. For someone who is as crazily wrong as you seem to think I am, you certainly seem dedicated to winning an argument against me. My position is real simple: the State has an obligation to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman committed 2nd degree murder. In doing so, if they proved he provoked defensive violence from Martin and did not retreat when he could have but rather escalated it a lethal gunfight, the State has successfully disproved self-defense. The jury instructions for provocation of force are: > [@](#): > > (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: > > (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm **and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant** ; or > . See that part in bold? If the State can show that Zimmerman provoked an attack on Martin and then did not use available non-lethal means of defending himself–irrespective of his fear–they successfully disprove self dense. Do you not see this? The words are right there. The “and” says all you need to know. This is why the lack of defensive wounds on Martin’s body are problematic for Zimmerman. The State will exploit this without having to address, if even a little bit, whether or not he truly had anything to fear from Martin. So I’ll say it again: the State does not have to prove anything about Zimmerman’s fear toward Martin to win their case. All they have to do is show that he provoked the attack and did not retreat or exhausted his non-lethal defense options before killing the victim. Quite coicidentally (or not) they will have to prove this to prove he committed 2nd degree murder. > [@](#): > > You keep changing your arguments, and as far as “butt[ing] my nose in” I wish I wouldn’t have. You say this after posting a wall of text completely unnecessarily, probably wasting an hour or more of your life. A wall of text that no one even read. So I sympathize with your wish. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3564 "2012-07-13T14:51:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And those instructions will follow the lines I have discussed here. I refuse to spend any more time trying to educate you. When the trial happens, I’m sure you’ll have some explanation for why the court failed to give the instructions you think they should have. Perhaps the vast raciost comspriacy that has permeated this case will return to the bench, or something. And what will you do when the jury is instructed on provocation of force? If I am wrong, it costs me nothing to acknowledge that, being that I’m not a member of the legal profession. If you’re wrong…well, that’ll be a bit embarrassing for you, won’t it? But because I’m nice, I won’t say “told you so” unless you provoke it out of me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3565 "2012-07-13T15:48:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And what will you do when the jury is instructed on provocation of force? > > If I am wrong, it costs me nothing to acknowledge that, being that I’m not a member of the legal profession. If you’re wrong…well, that’ll be a bit embarrassing for you, won’t it? But because I’m nice, I won’t say “told you so” unless you provoke it out of me. Assuming we get to trial with the same general evidence we have now, or the prosecution hasn’t amended the information to allege a separate felony, I’ll be utterly stunned. I’ll freely, loudly, and completely admit I was utterly wrong. Hell, I’ll add it to my signature line. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3566 "2012-07-13T16:05:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Assuming we get to trial with the same general evidence we have now, or the prosecution hasn’t amended the information to allege a separate felony, I’ll be utterly stunned. I’ll freely, loudly, and completely admit I was utterly wrong. Hell, I’ll add it to my signature line. Okay, I will hold you to this. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3567 "2012-07-13T16:11:17Z")
After reading the order setting bail: [http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press\_Releases/SKMBT\_363-V12070607100.pdf](http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/SKMBT_363-V12070607100.pdf) Frankly after reading pages 2 and 3, the statements he made were so prejudicial against Zimmerman that it seems that he is practically begging O’Mara to file a motion to have Lester Disqualified. I think he is doing exactly that. He suspects this trial is going to be a circus and doesn’t want to be involved. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3568 "2012-07-13T16:14:34Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > After reading the order setting bail: > > [http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press\_Releases/SKMBT\_363-V12070607100.pdf](http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/SKMBT_363-V12070607100.pdf) > > Frankly after reading pages 2 and 3, the statements he made were so prejudicial against Zimmerman that it seems that he is practically begging O’Mara to file a motion to have Lester Disqualified. > > I think he is doing exactly that. He suspects this trial is going to be a circus and doesn’t want to be involved. During a bail hearing, the judge sits as a finder of fact. Those statements are only “prejudicial” in the sense that he finds Zimmerman did (and allowed others to do) some bad stuff. Since Zimmerman did that stuff, the judge is allowed – indeed, it’s his duty – to find accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3569 "2012-07-13T16:20:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > See that part in bold? If the State can show that Zimmerman provoked an attack on Martin and then did not use available non-lethal means of defending himself–irrespective of his fear–they successfully disprove self dense. You’re wrong (again). The reasonable means of escape does not and cannot refer to some arbitrary time before shooting. It refers to the moment immediately prior to the shooting. And at that time Zimmerman had no reasonable means of escape. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3570 "2012-07-13T16:21:35Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Frankly after reading pages 2 and 3, the statements he made were so prejudicial against Zimmerman that it seems that he is practically begging O’Mara to file a motion to have Lester Disqualified. Prejudicial? How do you figure? He raised the bond, and gave the reasons why. He didn’t decide the bond before considering the evidence; that would be prejudicial. If you are objecting to the judge expressing statements of fact that led to his decision, how else could a judge ever make a bond decision against the defendant? Does it make the defendant look bad? Probably. But that in itself is not prejudicial. Maybe Zimmerman should have thought about that before he conspired to deceive the court. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3571 "2012-07-13T16:26:49Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > After reading the order setting bail: > > [http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press\_Releases/SKMBT\_363-V12070607100.pdf](http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/SKMBT_363-V12070607100.pdf) > > Frankly after reading pages 2 and 3, the statements he made were so prejudicial against Zimmerman that it seems that he is practically begging O’Mara to file a motion to have Lester Disqualified. > > I think he is doing exactly that. He suspects this trial is going to be a circus and doesn’t want to be involved. Or, the simpler explanation is that what he is saying about Zimmerman is accurate and you are just too biased to see it clearly for what it is. What’s more likely? Are you really elevating your opinion above the judge in the case? Do you really think he is trying to cleverly get himself disqualified with some elaborate ruse from the bench? Is that the most plausible explanation in your eyes, really? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3572 "2012-07-13T16:33:10Z")
Yeah, I love the idea that this judge is deliberately tarnishing his own reputation just to get out of presiding at Zimmerman’s trial. This case is doing a whammy on people’s common sense. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3573 "2012-07-13T16:45:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > During a bail hearing, the judge sits as a finder of fact. Those statements are only “prejudicial” in the sense that he finds Zimmerman did (and allowed others to do) some bad stuff. Since Zimmerman did that stuff, the judge is allowed – indeed, it’s his duty – to find accordingly. I would say that Lester’s statement did not limit itself to the facts and made highly prejudicial statements against Zimmerman. Read Jeralyn statement about the Lester’s order if you haven’t already. [http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/7/5/12441/34373](http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/7/5/12441/34373) > [@](#): > > Conclusion: This judge is going to have a hard time believing anything Zimmerman says in the future. At a Stand Your Ground hearing, Zimmerman will have to make his case based on the physical evidence and witness statements, since the judge is unlikely to find his testimony alone sufficient. I’m wondering if they are running out of judges in Seminole county? I seemed to recall that some other judges recused themselves already. Lester is up for reelection in 2014 and there is basically nothing he can do that won’t piss off somebody and he probably doesn’t want this on his plate since it would probably come to trial in 2014. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3574 "2012-07-13T17:00:17Z")
I don’t think Lester was being prejudicial in the sense of having some personal bias, but I do think his conclusion that GZ was preparing to flee (and that this was somehow “thwarted”) to be extremely unlikely. Not good for GZ at trial. Perhaps the biggest no-no a litigitant can do is to flout a judge’s authority. Judges are paid a lot less than lawyers, but the one thing they have is power. You deceive a judge in his own courtroom and cause him to make a ruling on a false basis and look like a fool when it’s exposed, and you will suffer his wrath. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3575 "2012-07-13T17:06:13Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I seemed to recall that some other judges recused themselves already. That’s true; _[because defense counsel O’Mara requested it](http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-judge-expected-recuse/story?id=16162592)_: > [@](#): > > The judge who was originally assigned the case was Circuit Judge Jessica Recksiedler, one of four possible judges to oversee what Zimmerman’s attorneys and the state expect to be a trial process that could last well into 2013. > > Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O’Mara asked that Recksiedler step aside because she is married to an attorney who works in the same law firm as Mark NeJame, a legal analyst for CNN, who has been outspoken about the case. Hardly a case of judges dodging the spotlight, or a case they deemed to be a ‘circus’. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3576 "2012-07-13T17:26:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re wrong (again). The reasonable means of escape does not and cannot refer to some arbitrary time before shooting. It refers to the moment immediately prior to the shooting. **And at that time Zimmerman had no reasonable means of escape.** Well - his hands were completely free. He outweighs Martin by a good 40-50lbs. Martin is no longer punching him in the face or banging his head. Seems like he has other options he could try first…does George have any legal obligation to do so, or can he make blowing the kid away be his first and last option? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3577 "2012-07-13T17:43:48Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > He outweighs Martin by a good 40-50lbs. Amazing how people keep bringing this up. It’s like they’re inhabiting some sort of alternative universe where a fat out-of-shape guy has a significant weight advantage. It would be great if you could find such people betting on sporting events. But I suspect that they’re a lot smarter then. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3578 "2012-07-13T17:49:15Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Well - his hands were completely free. He outweighs Martin by a good 40-50lbs. Martin is no longer punching him in the face or banging his head. > > Seems like he has other options he could try first…does George have any legal obligation to do so, or can he make blowing the kid away be his first and last option? There was that “crying out to his neighbors for help” effort. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3579 "2012-07-13T17:54:01Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Well - his hands were completely free. He outweighs Martin by a good 40-50lbs. Martin is no longer punching him in the face or banging his head. > > Seems like he has other options he could try first…does George have any legal obligation to do so, or can he make blowing the kid away be his first and last option? Again - did he have the reasonable means of escape at the moment he shot Martin? The state has to prove that beyond reasonable doubt. I don’t see how they could possibly do that, with the evidence released. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3580 "2012-07-13T17:54:21Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Amazing how people keep bringing this up. It’s like they’re inhabiting some sort of alternative universe where a fat out-of-shape guy has a significant weight advantage. I’ve seen no statements by Zimmerman where he self-identifies as “out of shape”. Sounds like an opinion to me. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3581 "2012-07-13T17:56:30Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s true; _because defense counsel O’Mara requested it_: Hardly a case of judges dodging the spotlight, or a case they deemed to be a ‘circus’. The lynch mob media, aka Team Skittles, was discussing Recksiedler having mentioned needing to recuse herself several days before O’Mara got around to asking for her to step aside. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=178) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=180)