# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/341 "2012-04-21T19:16:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Paramedics have the training to diagnose a possible broken nose. > > Don’t you find it odd that the police’s investigation didn’t entail them getting copies of medical records for Zimmerman? By the time the case was transferred to Corey, all of this shit should have been obtained weeks prior. _If_ it was deemed to be relevant. Perhaps the issue here is they didn’t–and still dont–think his injuries are all that relevant. > > Also, if the EMT noted that his nose appeared fine, the prosecutor might have found it unnecessary to go to Zimmerman for medical records. Any injuries documented after Zimmerman left the station could have been self-inflicted. No need then to trouble themselves with records that can’t be trusted when compared against other data. And how would a EMT diagnose a skull fracture? It brings up the question if Zimmerman was even responsible for any action that happened after having his skull bounced off the concrete ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/342 "2012-04-21T19:17:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, that was a clever lawyer trick. We don’t know THEY didn’t attempt to get them – we only know that particular investigator did not attempt to get them. Sure. If so, it presents two possibilities 1. One investigator doesn’t know what the other is doing or has done. If so, more incompetency. 2. The investigator on the stand chose to answer it in the narrowest way, hiding for some reason that they requested the records at the expense of making the prosecution team look incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/343 "2012-04-21T19:19:56Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > When he was talking to the 911 operator, he was still in front of the houses. Yeah but if the shooting happened behind the house and he was still in front of the house when talking to the 911 operator, then how did he get behind the house if he was supposedly walking back to his truck when the conflict started? Did he have to go behind the houses to get back to his truck? Why did he go behind the houses? He had to since that’s where Martin was shot right? I mean, was he looking for the address on the back of the house for some reason? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/344 "2012-04-21T19:22:00Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > They didn’t need to ask Zimmerman, they just needed to send a court order to the clinic. Again, why would they need to do this if they didn’t believe he was seriously injured at the time he was interviewed? If the paramedics cleaned him up and released him, noting no significant injuries or symptoms of such, and the cops themselves found no evidence that he had a broken nose, and Zimmerman himself reported feeling okay through his entire stay at the station…why should they have then gone through the trouble of getting a court order for medical records? They trusted their own evidence of Zimmermans health status. The state is only interested in proving its side of the case, not looking for evidence that backs the defendant’s side. If the state didn’t think these medical records were relevant in to proving its case, then there would be no need for them to get these records. Obviously, they aren’t all that interested in Zimmerman’s claim of getting his nose broken. This is something the defense is focused on. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/345 "2012-04-21T19:25:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why would the arrest affidavit reference a photo supposedly taken by a neighbor, rather than…gee, I dunno… the police? > > Dershowitz’s argument is stupid because it entirely rests upon the assumption that this photo is legally admissible evidence. > > Can I also remind the gallery that Dershowitz defended OJ Simpson? Not that this necessarily mean he’s a liar who would come out in support of the devil just as long he got a paycheck for it, but…just sayin. Not just O.J., Dershowitz is famous for defending scumbags Jim Bakker, Michael Milken, Leona Helmsley, Mike Tyson. Not that scumbags don’t deserve representation but he is something of a radical. I don’t think there is any righteous prosecution in Dershowitz’s America. Pretty funny a right-wing cesspool like [Breitbart.com](http://Breitbart.com) embracing the opinions of Dershowitz, though. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/346 "2012-04-21T19:34:50Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > And how would a EMT diagnose a skull fracture? It brings up the question if Zimmerman was even responsible for any action that happened after having his skull bounced off the concrete If there were signs of a broken nose or head trauma, the paramedics should have referred Zimmy to the ER right away. A swollen bloody nose and bleeding head wounds are cardinal signs of both, respectively. Do you think the paramedics were too incompetent to do this? Do you think they did refer Zimmerman to the ER, but Zimmy declined because he preferred a trip to the police station over medical care? Or do you believe the paramedics didn’t refer Zimmy to the ER, not because of incompetence, but because when they cleaned him up, they didn’t find any signs of a broken nose or head trauma? I believe in the third scenario, because it is consistent with the surveillance video and Zimmerman’s delay in seeking medical care. It’s also consistent with the lack of detail in the police report. The other two scenarios require me to believe the paramedics were either shoddy or that Zimmerman was capable of white-knuckling through severe pain while being interviewed, and yet somehow he wasn’t so stoic and brave when he supposedly was bawling for help like a kid on that 911 tape. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/347 "2012-04-21T19:35:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Absolutely incorrect statement of the law. Exchanges like the one with **Larry Mudd** and **Bricker** make me wonder how defendants in self defense cases _ever_ get a fair trial, it seems the public has a much different understanding of what is legal self defense than what is written in statute. I guess jury instructions must be really good at making jurors understand the issues, but with so many people (not saying anyone here, specifically) basically asserting “who give a shit about the legal specifics, he’s a murderer” I do have to think this is an instance where Zimmerman has a far better chance at a bench trial of receiving an appropriate verdict. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/348 "2012-04-21T19:37:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If there were signs of a broken nose or head trauma, the paramedics should have referred Zimmy to the ER right away. Do you have a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/349 "2012-04-21T19:39:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, that was a clever lawyer trick. We don’t know THEY didn’t attempt to get them – we only know that particular investigator did not attempt to get them. Since there are only two investigators working on the case, it is rather unlikely that Gilbreath would be totally unaware if O’Steen was trying to get the records or already had them even if Gilbreath hadn’t actually read them. Gilbreath knew the O’Steen had questioned DeeDee, even though he didn’t do it himself. > [@](#): > > O’MARA: I would you consider yourself one of the lead investigators? How do you determine your involvement, how do you define your involvement? > > GILBREATH: I’m one of the two investigators working on the case with the state attorney’s office. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/350 "2012-04-21T19:40:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If there were signs of a broken nose or head trauma, the paramedics should have referred Zimmy to the ER right away. A swollen bloody nose and bleeding head wounds are cardinal signs of both, respectively. > > Do you think the paramedics were too incompetent to do this? Do you think they did refer Zimmerman to the ER, but Zimmy declined because he preferred a trip to the police station over medical care? Or do you believe the paramedics didn’t refer Zimmy to the ER, not because of incompetence, but because when they cleaned him up, they didn’t find any signs of a broken nose or head trauma? > > I believe in the third scenario, because it is consistent with the surveillance video and Zimmerman’s delay in seeking medical care. It’s also consistent with the lack of detail in the police report. The other two scenarios require me to believe the paramedics were either shoddy or that Zimmerman was capable of white-knuckling through severe pain while being interviewed, and yet somehow he wasn’t so stoic and brave when he supposedly was bawling for help like a kid on that 911 tape. I still don’t understand why you are literally obsessed with _proving_ that Zimmerman had no serious injuries. It’s an extremely simple factual question that will be resolved at trial by persons who have access to the EMT report along with Zimmerman’s medical records. Even a next day physician’s medical records will more or less settle any questions, as any physician treating (just as an example) a broken nose will be able to testify as an expert as to the injuries and will probably have X-Rays and maybe even photos. I don’t know why people (you specifically) think this is something that **can** be definitively proven at this stage, and I’m also puzzled why you want to: it will be definitively settled when the court looks at an EMT report (if one exists) and Zimmerman’s medical records from his physician. If those indicate a broken nose, then he had a broken nose and all the tortuous logic you’ve engaged in is irrelevant. If they don’t indicate a broken nose, don’t indicate serious injuries to the back of the head, then all the tortuous logic you engaged in is _still_ irrelevant, because the only relevant issue is the demonstrable medical facts which have already been recorded and are just waiting to be revealed to the public at large. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/351 "2012-04-21T19:43:38Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? You need a cite that a broken nose and head trauma are serious injuries that are best treated and evaluated under a physician’s care, at a hospital, rather than the back of a police car? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/352 "2012-04-21T19:47:03Z")
Your logic on deciding which scenario you believe is flawed simply because of what I take is an extreme unfamiliarity with trauma on your person. Broken noses and even serious concussions do not necessarily cause “white knuckle pain.” I’ve been concussed (which is a serious injury) and there was relatively little pain, certainly not white knuckle pain. Pain spasms from a UTI were orders of magnitude worse, for example. In fact one of the more dangerous things about concussions is people often won’t recognize they’ve been concussed. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/353 "2012-04-21T19:49:24Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You need a cite that a broken nose and head trauma are serious injuries that are best treated and evaluated under a physician’s care, at a hospital, rather than the back of a police car? Yes. I’m looking for a cite that someone with a broken nose or head trauma similar to Zimmerman’s needs to be taken to the ER right away, as you say. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/354 "2012-04-21T19:49:37Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I still don’t understand why you are literally obsessed with _proving_ that Zimmerman had no serious injuries. It’s an extremely simple factual question that will be resolved at trial by persons who have access to the EMT report along with Zimmerman’s medical records. I am not obsessed with proving that he wasn’t seriously injured. I just dont assume he was seriously injured in the absence of evidence, _collected at the scene_, that he was. Posters are expressing bafflement as to why the prosecution hasn’t bothered seeking copies of Zimmermans medical records. I don’t know find this baffling at all, and I’m simply explaining why. ---
**Author:** ![DaHarder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@DaHarder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaHarder)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/355 "2012-04-21T19:53:53Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Well Z saying that he thought M was 25 would not be contradicted by the fact that he was in fact 17, because it is a statement of what he believed at the time. The fact that he was actually 17 does not mean that Z didn’t actually think he was 25 at the time, right? It’s pretty obvious that **Zimmerman** ‘contradicted’ himself/lied under oath during the bail hearing on Friday regrading what he believed **Martin** ’s age to be, as can he made it quite clear that he assessed **Martin** to be in ‘_his late teens_’ only minutes before the shooting during the (now infamous) 911 call : 911 dispatcher: _How old would you say he is?_ Zimmerman: _He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens._ 911 dispatcher: _Late teens?_ Zimmerman: _Uh, huh._ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/356 "2012-04-21T20:03:29Z")
> [@DaHarder](#): > > It’s pretty obvious that **Zimmerman** ‘contradicted’ himself/lied under oath during the bail hearing on Friday regrading what he believed **Martin** ’s age to be, as can he made it quite clear that he assessed **Martin** to be in ‘_his late teens_’ only minutes before the shooting during the (now infamous) 911 call : > > 911 dispatcher: _How old would you say he is?_ > > Zimmerman: _He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens._ > > 911 dispatcher: _Late teens?_ > > Zimmerman: _Uh, huh._ I agree about the contradiction, but was he actually under oath when he spoke at his bail hearing? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/357 "2012-04-21T20:04:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I am not obsessed with proving that he wasn’t seriously injured. I just dont assume he was seriously injured in the absence of evidence, _collected at the scene_, that he was. > > Posters are expressing bafflement as to why the prosecution hasn’t bothered seeking copies of Zimmermans medical records. I don’t know find this baffling at all, and I’m simply explaining why. It’s baffling if the prosecution wishes to win its case. The medical records can either help the prosecution, help the defense, or be inconclusive. Either way as a trial lawyer you _want this information_, if it helps the other side you need to be prepared for dealing with it at trial and undermining it. If it helps your case, it becomes part of your argument and the other side has to try and cast doubt on the medical report findings. If it is inconclusive there is still value in knowing, because it will allow you to decide how to proceed on that issue and make reasonable assumptions about how the other side might proceed. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/358 "2012-04-21T20:11:39Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Yes. I’m looking for a cite that someone with a broken nose or head trauma similar to Zimmerman’s needs to be taken to the ER right away, as you say. See [here](http://www.nursingceu.com/courses/333/index_ems.html) for what is indicated for persons who have experienced head trauma. I can’t help you if you need a cite to support that head trauma conducive for a concussion plus a broken nose warrants hospital attention. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/359 "2012-04-21T20:12:56Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Yeah but if the shooting happened behind the house and he was still in front of the house when talking to the 911 operator, then how did he get behind the house if he was supposedly walking back to his truck when the conflict started? > > Did he have to go behind the houses to get back to his truck? Why did he go behind the houses? He had to since that’s where Martin was shot right? I mean, was he looking for the address on the back of the house for some reason? I really hope Zimmerman was grilled about this weak spot of the story, because it determines whether he’s lying or if he’s telling the truth. If he lied about the whole reason for being there, even if it’s just a little bit, why should we believe anything else he says? I don’t believe him if his story is that he got out to check on street signage. That’s just bananas. But even if that is the truth, he still needs to explain how in they got from the truck to the grass. Did Martin fling him over there? Did Martin punch him in the street and then an angry Zimmerman ran after him? Did Zimmerman get out to check the street signage and then, now having a location to give the cops, amble towards the yard (perhaps engrossed in his phone) where a crouching tiger, hidden Martin attacked him? Or did Zimmerman, in his statement to the police, admit to getting out of his truck to track Martin? And did he tell them that Martin didn’t punch him next to the truck or out in the street, but out in the between-the-houses area where the two met up? Because if this is the case, then I can see why the police kept him only for a few hours and then released him. That’s a very straightforward, believable story from a man who’s admitting he did something that–in hindsight–was pretty foolish but perfectly legal. But if Zimmerman’s story is anything like what his surrogates have said (and please, pedants, note that I said IF), then I don’t see why the cops didn’t find the whole thing puzzling enough to keep him longer than they did. I don’t know what he told them. But I find it strange that Zimmerman’s father would relay a distorted story. Why would Zimmerman lie to his own father but to tell the truth to the police? Why would his father, knowing the visibility of the case, tell a story that would contradict his own son’s account? I’m thinking that if I were the father and Zimmerman had told me that he’d gotten out of his truck to follow Martin, I wouldn’t try to hide that fact. I’d say, “Yeah, he was following the kid, but from a distance. That’s not against the law, ya’ll.” So even if the father’s account is not admissible in court, the weirdness of what Zimmerman’s father says happened and the established facts of the case (i.e., the fight didn’t happen in the street, but over yonder quite a bit) make me really curious about what Zimmerman told the police that night. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/360 "2012-04-21T20:12:59Z")
> [@DaHarder](#): > > It’s pretty obvious that **Zimmerman** ‘contradicted’ himself/lied under oath during the bail hearing on Friday regrading what he believed **Martin** ’s age to be, as can he made it quite clear that he assessed **Martin** to be in ‘_his late teens_’ only minutes before the shooting during the (now infamous) 911 call : > > 911 dispatcher: _How old would you say he is?_ > > Zimmerman: _He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens._ > > 911 dispatcher: _Late teens?_ > > Zimmerman: _Uh, huh._ I’d hope the prosecution would have a much clearer and much more significant contradiction than this. “About like his late teens” and “About my age (26)” aren’t that different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=19)