# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 182
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3622 "2012-07-13T22:03:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Just to throw out random facts that came out in discovery yesterday: > > - Martin had been wearing a button on his hoodie. It displayed a photo. (As you may recall, GZ made mention of this on his infamous call.) > > - GZ’s best buddie is an air marshal who used to be the SPD Deputy until he was fired a while ago for some kind of malfeasance involving a con man. Interestingly enough, this guy claims Shellie called him to the scene after the shooting, and when he got there, he spoke with GZ and the officers before GZ was taken to the station. > > -GZ apparently stayed with this guy (Osterman) for 6 weeks after the shooting. He accompanied GZ to the reenactment the next day. > > - The SPD is being investigated for violating Martin’s civil rights in the handling of this case. (hallelujuah) > > - The hole in Martin’s hoodie does not line up with the hole in his chest or shirt. Who can guess what this might mean? The button was found in his hoodie pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3623 "2012-07-13T22:40:42Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Recksiedler and Galluzzo wanted off the case. Your cite does not support that conclusion. Having conflicts of interest is not synonymous with wanting off the case. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3624 "2012-07-13T22:41:53Z")
> [@Joel Upchurch](#): > > As usual, you are wrong. And your cite does not support that conclusion. Having a conflict of interest is not synonymous with wanting off the case. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3625 "2012-07-13T23:08:31Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > He talked to Zimmerman before he was taken to the police station, which is where he made his official statements, right? I didn’t say he told him the entire story, but are you saying he could not have possibly given him any advice on what he needed to make sure he didn’t say? You are ruling this out as a possibility? We know they talked before he went to the station to give his statement. We know he is aware of the law and could advise Zimmerman on anything related to this. How are you so certain he didn’t help Zimmerman with anything? We also know he was with him at the reenactment. How can you be so certain that he _didn’t_ help him? That seems the more extreme position to me really. What find I remarkable is that you think that this guy was some sort of mastermind that could tell Zimmerman his story in front of witnesses without anybody noticing, but wasn’t smart enough to tell him to shut and don’t say anything until he talked to a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3626 "2012-07-13T23:25:52Z")
What I find interesting about the Osterman issue is that his presence was never mentioned at all in the police reports. He talked to GZ and the arriving officers prior to him going to the station, and yet there is no record of these exchanges anywhere in the cop’s documentation. You’da think that if Osterman truly had his pal’s best interest at heart, he would have told him to zip his mouth until he had an attorney present. Maybe he did, but Z ignored that advice. Anyway, it sounds like Zimmerman does has connections to PD leadership via his relationship with the former deputy. Speaking of conflict of interest, Zimmerman was probably hoping these conflicts would work in his favor. He probably didn’t fret about getting a lawyer because he felt protected. One thing that is a puzzle to me is why would this air marshal dude be willing to risk so much for Zimmerman. First off, just why exactly did he arrive at the scene so quickly? He didn’t live in the community, and if he was simply visiting the Zimmerman’s, you would think he would have accompanied Zimmerman on his trip to the store. Or at a minimum, tag a long with Shellie when she reported to the scene. So how did he get there so fast? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3627 "2012-07-13T23:30:59Z")
And also, I don’t remember Zimmerman ever mentioning his conversation with Osterman at the scene either. If Osterman himself hadn’t admitted to being there, this detail would have gone completely unreported. That is suspicious to me. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3628 "2012-07-13T23:56:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And your cite does not support that conclusion. Having a conflict of interest is not synonymous with wanting off the case. And you expect judges to issue a press release that they don’t want to get involved in an hard case? You need to learn the difference between a reason and an excuse. Judge Recksiedler’s excuse seemed pretty lame. Is it general practice for Judges to discuss their cases with their spouse when they get home? He wasn’t even involved in the case, but his coworker was commenting for CNN. She just wanted an out and O’Mara accommodated her. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3629 "2012-07-14T00:28:57Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > And you expect judges to issue a press release that they don’t want to get involved in an hard case? You need to learn the difference between a reason and an excuse. So it’s all in your head. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3630 "2012-07-14T00:36:10Z")
I don’t think O’Mara is truly trying to get Lester off his case. It’s not like the replacement judge has been living in a hole; they know GZ was shameless enough to lie to the court and thus, is someone who has long lost any extra-judicial benefit of the doubts. If there’s any bias, GZ has only himself to blame. It’s like he thinks he’s entitled to an endless supply of do-overs. If Lester does recuse himself, it’ll be awesome irony if the next judge is even stricter. Maybe he’ll luck out and pull a judge who has sons around Martin’s age. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3631 "2012-07-14T00:48:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If Lester does recuse himself, it’ll be awesome irony if the next judge is even stricter. Maybe he’ll luck out and pull a judge who has sons around Martin’s age. So you _want_ a judge that’s biased against Zimmerman? You really, really hate the idea of the law being applied fairly, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3632 "2012-07-14T01:19:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So you _want_ a judge that’s biased against Zimmerman? Strict doesn’t necessarily mean biased, and neither does having 17 year old sons. I want a judge that is “biased” toward reason, truth, and logical interpretation of the law. That kind of bias goes against Zimmerman’s favor, admittedly, so maybe you’re not completely wrong. Separate from that though, I will not shed a tear if O’Mara judge-shopping backfires on him. This is what you get when you hitch your wagon to a client who pisses off the court by lying and making up silly stories about undeclared passports. O’Mara lost his standing with Lester when he aided and abetted this piece if falsehood, and O’Mara knows it. I almost can’t blame him for trying to get out from under him, but I think he’s smart enough to know it isnt really going to do anything on a practical level. Lester and the other felony judges probably are all Facebook friends. I bet Lester just sent them a status update that reads “Oh rly now…they shoulda thought about bias before they fucking lied in my courtroom, them perjuring potted plant motherfuckers!!!” And his judge friends are throwing “likes” at him like rice. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3633 "2012-07-14T01:42:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And your cite does not support that conclusion. Having a conflict of interest is not synonymous with wanting off the case. And a judge wanting to get off a case still equates to a judge wanting to get off a case. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3634 "2012-07-14T01:55:22Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > What find I remarkable is that you think that this guy was some sort of mastermind that could tell Zimmerman his story in front of witnesses without anybody noticing, but wasn’t smart enough to tell him to shut and don’t say anything until he talked to a lawyer. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What I find interesting about the Osterman issue is that his presence was never mentioned at all in the police reports. He talked to GZ and the arriving officers prior to him going to the station, and yet there is no record of these exchanges anywhere in the cop’s documentation. > > You’da think that if Osterman truly had his pal’s best interest at heart, he would have told him to zip his mouth until he had an attorney present. Maybe he did, but Z ignored that advice. Osterman was probably and understandably thinking like a cop, not a lawyer. Remaining silent and lawyering-up is what makes cops see you as guilty, and brings out their adversarial instincts to build a case and find fault from the get-go. Being seen to cooperate and forgoing a lawyer would have the opposite effect, and tend to elicit a sympathetic response, particularly with his connections to the department and community, and Martin’s utter lack of same. The cooperative approach actually worked perfectly initially, until of course the uproar and backlash against the SPD, which was largely due to their history of misconduct and controversy. It’s only in retrospect that we can conclude that remaining silent and lawyering-up would have been the right move, particularly after so many inconsistencies have come to light. But they couldn’t have known how much scrutiny would ultimately be brought to bear on this, so it probably was the best move… at the time. Where Zimmerman got waaaaay too cocky for his own good is when he \*continued \*to forgo retaining a lawyer, even after the case had blown up in the media and it was clear that it wasn’t just going to blow over. Really, before you start building your own website presenting your homicide defense and soliciting donations, you _might_ just want to consider if it’s time to retain a lawyer, instead. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3635 "2012-07-14T02:03:07Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > And a judge wanting to get off a case still equates to a judge wanting to get off a case. Wow, that’s impressive reasoning, there! You might want to actually demonstrate the veracity of your initial assertion before jumping to such a brilliant conclusion, though. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3636 "2012-07-14T02:09:27Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Strict doesn’t necessarily mean biased, and neither does having 17 year old sons. I want a judge that is “biased” toward reason, truth, and logical interpretation of the law. That kind of bias goes against Zimmerman’s favor, admittedly, so maybe you’re not completely wrong. According to the “motion to disqualify the judge”, this biased judge ignored everything in Zimmerman’s favor and even went so far as to suggest additional charges that the State should bring against Zimmerman. That’s NOT the judges job. An honest judge would recuse himself and the lynch mobs be damned. \*Of grave concern to Mr. Zimmerman is that there is no corroboration for the Court’s bold conclusion that "Although there is no record of flight to avoid prosecution, this Court finds that circumstances indicate that the Defendant was preparing to flee to avoid prosecution, but such plans were thwarted. Further, the Court also denigrates Mr. Zimmerman’s voluntary statements to law enforcement, that he surrendered twice to law enforcement when requested and his willingness to take all tests offered, including the taking of a CVSA. Seemingly, this Court believes those actions to be disingenuous, self-serving manipulations as well. The Court makes sweeping generalizations about Mr. zimmerman based on limited information and disregards the evidence that contradicts those conclusion. …The Court departed from its role as an impartial, objective minister of justice when it stated on two occasions in its Order that in the Court’s peronal opinion there is probable cause to believe that the Defendant committed a violation of Florida Statute 903.035(3), a third degree felony punishable by five years in prison. This is tantamount to instructing the State that Mr. Zimmerman should be prosecuted for this offense.\* ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3637 "2012-07-14T02:12:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > And a judge wanting to get off a case still equates to a judge wanting to get off a case. Which you have failed to show ever happened. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3638 "2012-07-14T02:22:28Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Wow, that’s impressive reasoning, there! You might want to actually demonstrate the veracity of your initial assertion before jumping to such a **brilliant conclusion** , though. Thank you but I wouldn’t call it brilliant. “More than adequate” describes it. I said that several judges wanted off this case because several judges wanted off this case. I’ve shown were several judges recused themselves. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3639 "2012-07-14T02:23:06Z")
I thought it was an exceptionally well-written filing by Z’s defense attorneys. He is supposed to be a fair, objective, impartial arbiter of law and fact. I think it would be extremely difficult to find an impartial legal expert that agrees that the case against Zimmerman is strong (much less anywhere remotely strong enough to meet the standard that Lester claims it does.) I think it would be extremely difficult to find any impartial legal expert that would conclude that Zimmerman was going to hightail it to a foreign country. He was right to revoke bond and to hold Zimmerman accountable for his lack of actions at the original bond hearing. But a lot of his other findings were quite a stretch. I agree with most- if not all- of O’Mara’s filing, but think it will be denied by Judge Lester. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3640 "2012-07-14T02:25:13Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’ve shown were several judges recused themselves. That was never in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3641 "2012-07-14T02:30:02Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > I thought it was an exceptionally well-written filing by Z’s defense attorneys. He is supposed to be a fair, objective, impartial arbiter of law and fact. > > I think it would be extremely difficult to find an impartial legal expert that agrees that the case against Zimmerman is strong (much less anywhere remotely strong enough to meet the standard that Lester claims it does.) > > I think it would be extremely difficult to find any impartial legal expert that would conclude that Zimmerman was going to hightail it to a foreign country. > > He was right to revoke bond and to hold Zimmerman accountable for his lack of actions at the original bond hearing. But a lot of his other findings were quite a stretch. > > I agree with most- if not all- of O’Mara’s filing, **but think it will be denied by Judge Lester**. And that opens the door to an appeal. Lester’s actions have tainted this case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=181) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=183)