# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 185
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3682 "2012-07-14T19:52:08Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [Not in Florida](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2894049/florida-supreme-court-upholds.html): That’s not what that law says. It says that possession of drugs is a strict liability offence, so ignorance of possession doesn’t equal innocence. Which is, in my opinion, not the way the law should be, but it has nothing to do with presumption of innocence. The State will still have to prove that the defendant had the drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3683 "2012-07-14T19:53:05Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Have you actually read O’Mara Motion? He cited several errors that Judge Lester made and some rather non judicial language he used. Even If we assume that Zimmerman’s action caused Judge Lester’s anger, it looks like he over reacted. Judges need to keep their anger in check. > > It was just yesterday that you pooh-poohed my speculation that O’Mara would file a motion to disqualify Judge Lester. According to the time stamps, O’Mara had actually already filed the motion when we discussed it. I did not pooh pooh the idea that OMara would file a motion. I disputed the suggestion that Lester’s actions were inappropriate: > [@Bricker](#): > > During a bail hearing, the judge sits as a finder of fact. Those statements are only “prejudicial” in the sense that he finds Zimmerman did (and allowed others to do) some bad stuff. Since Zimmerman did that stuff, the judge is allowed – indeed, it’s his duty – to find accordingly. > [@](#): > > IIRC, you are a former prosecutor. It looks to me that Jeralyn has a more accurate ideas about how to play defense. Her post last night points up several tactical advantages in O’Mara’s motion. He is putting Judge Lester in a situation where even if doesn’t recuse himself, he could end up being reversed on appeal if Zimmerman is convicted. If he doesn’t recuse himself, then O’Mara can file an appeal that will freeze the trail until the appeals court can rule on it. I am a former defense attorney. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3684 "2012-07-14T19:59:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [Not in Florida](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2894049/florida-supreme-court-upholds.html): Yes, in Florida. Read the actual opinion. All the Florida law says is that the state doesn’t need to prove knowledge – just like statutory rape laws. Are they also “guilty until proven innocent?” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3685 "2012-07-14T19:59:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my view, nothing Lester wrote can be fairly interpreted to show bias. When a defendant deceives the court, as Zimmerman did on bail, the judge is permitted – indeed, REQUIRED, in his role as fact-finder – to document those facts that he relied upon to support his vision. > > For Zimmerman to claim he’s now prejudiced as a result is akin to the defendant that murders his parents and then asks the judge for mercy because he’s an orphan. Is the judge also required to consider the things Zimmerman had done correctly? As an example, Zimmerman was asked to surrender to the police on two seperate occasions and he promptly returned as instructed. The judge said that he believed that Zimmerman was going to flee. Based on what? GZ has had ample opportunity to head for points unknown and didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3686 "2012-07-14T20:03:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my view, nothing Lester wrote can be fairly interpreted to show bias. When a defendant deceives the court, as Zimmerman did on bail, the judge is permitted – indeed, REQUIRED, in his role as fact-finder – to document those facts that he relied upon to support his vision. > > For Zimmerman to claim he’s now prejudiced as a result is akin to the defendant that murders his parents and then asks the judge for mercy because he’s an orphan. Is the judge also required to consider the things Zimmerman had done correctly? As an example, Zimmerman was asked to surrender to the police on two seperate occasions and he promptly returned as instructed. The judge said that he believed that Zimmerman was going to flee. Based on what? GZ has had ample opportunity to head for points unknown and didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3687 "2012-07-14T20:13:04Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] You dont find it questionable that his presence was unacknowledged in the police reports and all of Zimmerman’s narratives? I do. If there was nothing wrong about him being there, there is no reason it shouldn’t have been reported. [/QUOTE] This doesn’t make any sense. Why should the police report something if there’s nothing wrong with it? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3688 "2012-07-14T20:15:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I did not pooh pooh the idea that OMara would file a motion. I disputed the suggestion that Lester’s actions were inappropriate: So are you now stating that O’Mara’s motion is wrong and will lose on appeal? You opinion certainly seems to disagree with O’Mara’s. Note we are not really talking about Lester’s **actions** , but the **language** he used in his order. You seem to be doing a bit of ‘lawyering’ here. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3689 "2012-07-14T20:21:43Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > So are you now stating that O’Mara’s motion is wrong and will lose on appeal? You opinion certainly seems to disagree with O’Mara’s. Note we are not really talking about Lester’s **actions** , but the **language** he used in his order. > > You seem to be doing a bit of ‘lawyering’ here. And O’Mara is not doing some lawyering too? Come on. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3690 "2012-07-14T20:26:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You are confusing the judge’s role at trial with his role pre-trial. Certainly Z’s deceit is not a proper subject for his murder trial. Certainly the judge should never advise the jury about it. > > And of course, he hasn’t. I did blend the two roles. The same judge would be hearing both the pre-trial and the trial. If the judge appears to be helping the prosecutor decide what charges to place against Zimmerman at the bond hearing, why would Zimmerman/O’Mara assume that the judge won’t also help the prosecutor’s case during the trial? As I understand it, it is up to the judge if he should recuse himself. Wouldn’t having a new judge reduce the possibility of a successful appeal? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3691 "2012-07-14T20:34:34Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You dont find it questionable that his presence was unacknowledged in the police reports… Did he talk to the police? Are you suggesting that the police did not document a conversation they had with a potential witness? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3692 "2012-07-14T20:43:55Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > And O’Mara is not doing some lawyering too? Come on. Of course O’Mara is lawyering, that’s his job. The thing is that Bricker is off the clock and should actually give straight answers and not evasive one’s. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3693 "2012-07-14T20:49:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my view, nothing Lester wrote can be fairly interpreted to show bias. When a defendant deceives the court, as Zimmerman did on bail, the judge is permitted – indeed, REQUIRED, in his role as fact-finder – to document those facts that he relied upon to support his vision. The problem is that the judge did more than just document the facts. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3694 "2012-07-14T21:17:49Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Imho, GZ’s sd claim rests on TM declaring his intent to end GZ’ life while reaching for the gun. > > ymmv I believe the screams for help- which one would reasonably attribute to Zimmerman- are enough to demonstrate that George Zimmerman felt in danger of serious injury or death. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3695 "2012-07-14T21:33:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But Ostermam should’ve known that Zimmerman isn’t the sharpest package of cheddar in the dairy case, and therefore liable to slip up and say something incriminating. If he didnt advise him to lawyer up before being interrogated, I have to think he too is an idiot. Which may explain why he was fired from the Sanford PD (he was duped by a con man and lost a lot of money). And it could also explain why he’s friends with Zimmerman. > > Still irks me that it’s just now coming out that this guy was at the scene shortly after the shooting. I mean, I’ve heard of friends so close they help each other bury bodies and stuff, but it’s weird to me that he was there soon enough to chat with Zimmerman before he was taken away. I wanna know more about this. It sounds hinkey to me. It’s nice to have a new name to add to the various conspiracy theories. I think it’s ridiculous that his identity has been revealed, exposing this man and his family to harassment (at the least). ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3696 "2012-07-14T21:39:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You dont find it questionable that his presence was unacknowledged in the police reports and all of Zimmerman’s narratives? I do. If there was nothing wrong about him being there, there is no reason it shouldn’t have been reported. The hinkiness is in this ommission. It suggests there was concerted effort on both the PD and Zimmerman to keep this guy’s name out of this mess. The question is why. Why do you suppose officials might want to protect the identity of a private citizen who happens to be a good friend of George Zimmerman? I think you can see the reasons why right now. He will undergo harassment, probably threats, and become a target of the Trayvengers. Not to mention that federal air marshalls require anonymity to do their jobs (which is why HLS wouldn’t confirm his employment with them.) Of _course_ there was an effort to keep this guy’s name out of this mess. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3697 "2012-07-14T21:44:21Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > It’s nice to have a new name to add to the various conspiracy theories. I think it’s ridiculous that his identity has been revealed, exposing this man and his family to harassment (at the least). There are already [two](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086058/) [movies](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0444129/) about the new guy and other conspiracies. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3698 "2012-07-14T21:49:25Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Of course O’Mara is lawyering, that’s his job. The thing is that Bricker is off the clock and should actually give straight answers and not evasive one’s. I think his answers were perfectly straight forward and reasonable. You just don’t like it that he doesn’t agree with you, so you assume he’s bullshitting you or something. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3699 "2012-07-14T22:16:03Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I think his answers were perfectly straight forward and reasonable. You just don’t like it that he doesn’t agree with you, so you assume he’s bullshitting you or something. Bricker quoted my entire post in 3567 and now he says he was only responding to half of the first sentence. You assume Zimmerman is _bullshitting_ on much weaker evidence than that. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3700 "2012-07-14T23:44:11Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Why do you suppose officials might want to protect the identity of a private citizen who happens to be a good friend of George Zimmerman? I’m sorry, but since when did official police reports become about protecting the identity of private citizens? Cops are supposed to document what they see at the scene, and that includes people the suspect is observed to have contact with. For all the cops knew, Osterman was a witness or an accomplice. We don’t know if they asked the guy any questions to establish what he saw or didn’t see, or what Zimmerman communicated to him, because none of this was documented. So yeah, there lie hinkiness. > [@Shodan](#): > > This doesn’t make any sense. Why should the police report something if there’s nothing wrong with it? I’m sorry, but since when did police reports become about documenting only “wrong” things? > [@Bricker](#): > > My question is: what possible prejudice does the course of justice suffer, no matter what the answer to your question is? It’s one more indication that the cops handled this case in a less-than-thorough manner. What may have just looked like sloppiness, podunkness, and benign neglect, now has the appearance of impropriety when you look at Zimmerman’s close relationship with a former SPD official. This appearance of impropriety doesn’t just stop at the incompleteness of the police report; it naturally extends to the rest of the investigation as it becomes clear it was poorly handled (for instance, the cops didn’t even make note where Zimmerman’s truck was parked, there doesn’t seem to be a documented attempt to test Zimmerman for drugs/alcohol, etc.) All this is probably why the Sanford PD is being investigated for violating Martin’s civil rights. Sounds like there is probable cause for wrongdoing. I would not be surprised if this Osterman guy is wrapped up in it. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3701 "2012-07-15T00:09:16Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > I believe the screams for help- which one would reasonably attribute to Zimmerman- are enough to demonstrate that George Zimmerman felt in danger of serious injury or death. Why pray tell, is it more reasonable to attribute screams for help to the adult who is still alive in lieu of the teenager who is now dead? Hint: Saying it is because Zimmerman sustained injuries is not a viable answer. Unless you have an eye witness who can identify who was screaming, this is not evidence of Zimmermans fears. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=184) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=186)