# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 186
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3702 "2012-07-15T00:15:53Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Why pray tell, is it more reasonable to attribute screams for help to the adult who is still alive in lieu of the teenager who is now dead? > > Hint: Saying it is because Zimmerman sustained injuries is not a viable answer. Unless you have an eye witness who can identify who was screaming, this is not evidence of Zimmermans fears. No, actually the injuries are a reasonable answer. It doesn’t prove anything, but it certainly makes it more likely it’s Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3703 "2012-07-15T00:24:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, actually the injuries are a reasonable answer. It doesn’t prove anything, but it certainly makes it more likely it’s Zimmerman. As opposed to the minor with a hole in his chest? You are being willfully ignorant if you think one is more likely than the other. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3704 "2012-07-15T00:26:52Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > As opposed to the minor with a hole in his chest? You are being willfully ignorant if you think one is more likely than the other. The screaming stopped when the shot was fired. You are being ignorant, wilfully or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3705 "2012-07-15T00:34:15Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Why pray tell, is it more reasonable to attribute screams for help to the adult who is still alive in lieu of the teenager who is now dead? > > Hint: Saying it is because Zimmerman sustained injuries is not a viable answer. Unless you have an eye witness who can identify who was screaming, this is not evidence of Zimmermans fears. An alternative explanation would have Trayvon Martin fighting over the gun, and that would likely have caused injuries to Trayvon Martin, not just George Zimmerman. The person who was assaulted and battered likely would be the one screaming for help. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3706 "2012-07-15T00:35:47Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Why pray tell, is it more reasonable to attribute screams for help to the adult who is still alive in lieu of the teenager who is now dead? > > Hint: Saying it is because Zimmerman sustained injuries is not a viable answer. Unless you have an eye witness who can identify who was screaming, this is not evidence of Zimmermans fears. 1. At the time of the screaming, the only person sustaining injuries was George Zimmerman. 2. Although he could not _see_ Zimmerman screaming, W6 believed it was him screaming for several reasons (one of which I have never seen mentioned, but it surely will at any SYG or trial.) 3. All of the reasons that the police concluded it was Zimmerman’s voice. 4. Upon examination, the idea that it was Trayvon’s voice is a rather silly proposition. There is no evidence to suggest that Zimmerman held Martin at gun point for 2 minutes while Martin beat the crap out of him, nor is there any evidence consistent with a struggle over a gun. In fact, the evidence suggests there was not a struggle over a gun, because if Zimmerman had a gun in his hand pointed at Trayvon, then why were all of Zimmerman’s injuries on his head? Why was neither Trayvon’s fingerprints or DNA on the gun that they were struggling for? Why didn’t Trayvon ask W6, who came outside and ask them to stop and he was calling the police, say.. “I can’t stop, he’s got a gun in his hand OMG!”? But instead Trayvon seemed to ignore W6 and simply moved over to the sidewalk remaining on top of Zimmerman as they continued to fight? The idea that it was TM screaming for his life was a fabrication created by Crump to push the case against Zimmerman back when people had no clue about what happened. By the end of a trial, there is no way in hell you are going to find 6 people that will believe it. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3707 "2012-07-15T00:36:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The screaming stopped when the shot was fired. You are being ignorant, wilfully or otherwise. Silly me, to think I assumed all this time that having holes punched in ones lungs would abruptly curtail the ability to scream… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3708 "2012-07-15T00:41:27Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Silly me, to think I assumed all this time that having holes punched in ones lungs would abruptly curtail the ability to scream… It would also stop one being able to attack someone else, causing them to scream. It’s not conclusive either way. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3709 "2012-07-15T00:44:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s not conclusive either way. Well, I’m glad you are seeing things my way. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3710 "2012-07-15T00:48:47Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Well, I’m glad you are seeing things my way. If you agree that it proves nothing, and cannot be used to show Zimmerman’s guilt, I’m certainly seeing things your way. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3711 "2012-07-15T00:55:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you agree that it proves nothing, and cannot be used to show Zimmerman’s guilt, I’m certainly seeing things your way. I never posited that it did. Zimmerman’s guilt is not what I commented on, what i commented on was whether the screams were evidence of Zimmerman’s fear. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3712 "2012-07-15T00:55:47Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Why pray tell, is it more reasonable to attribute screams for help to the adult who is still alive in lieu of the teenager who is now dead? > > Hint: Saying it is because Zimmerman sustained injuries is not a viable answer. Unless you have an eye witness who can identify who was screaming, this is not evidence of Zimmermans fears. Reasonable Doubt. The prosecution has to **prove** that Zimmerman wasn’t the one screaming. Can you prove that Zimmerman wasn’t the one who was screaming? ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3713 "2012-07-15T00:57:06Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Silly me, to think I assumed all this time that having holes punched in ones lungs would abruptly curtail the ability to scream… Better Google that opinion. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3714 "2012-07-15T02:22:21Z")
If GZ left his truck when he said he did and walked across the block and then was assaulted on the way back to his truck, how did his keys get from his truck to the grass? The initial assumption I make is that he carried them with him. However, we hear the car warning him that he left his keys in the truck and he tells NEN that his keys are in the truck. So GZ’s keys must have gotten over to the grassy area between the houses some other way, obviously. **Maybe TM doubled back and took GZ’s keys out of GZ’s ignition and brought them to GZ?** ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3715 "2012-07-15T02:26:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Other than those which allow innocence. The evidence must exclude every reasonable hypothesis except guilt. So there could be multiple hypotheses which are still viable, but if all of those viable options include guilt, then the vote should be guilty. But if one of the multiple hypotheses still viable does not include guilt, then the state has not met it’s burden and the vote should be not guilty. yes? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3716 "2012-07-15T02:28:08Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The prosecution has to **prove** that Martin wasn’t there to start a fight. I honestly don’t understand that line of reasoning. I thought they had a lot more options that merely that one. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3717 "2012-07-15T03:04:02Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > If GZ left his truck when he said he did and walked across the block and then was assaulted on the way back to his truck, how did his keys get from his truck to the grass? > The initial assumption I make is that he carried them with him. > However, we hear the car warning him that he left his keys in the truck and he tells NEN that his keys are in the truck. > So GZ’s keys must have gotten over to the grassy area between the houses some other way, obviously. > > **Maybe TM doubled back and took GZ’s keys out of GZ’s ignition and brought them to GZ?** It would appear that he took them out like anybody else would upon hearing the alarm. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3718 "2012-07-15T03:48:22Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > I honestly don’t understand that line of reasoning. > I thought they had a lot more options that merely that one. We are discussing what the prosecution can prove at trial. That leaves out a lot of hypotheticals. They might be useful for the prosecution at the SYG hearing, but they are useless at trial. O’Mara’s statements indicate that their aren’t any blockbusters left. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3719 "2012-07-15T04:27:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It would appear that he took them out like anybody else would upon hearing the alarm. In the audio, the noise stops when the door shuts, not before. GZ says that he left the keys in the truck. Your theory doesn’t account for those two bits very well, imho. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3720 "2012-07-15T12:10:26Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Reasonable Doubt. The prosecution has to **prove** that Zimmerman wasn’t the one screaming. No it doesn’t. Why do you think the screams end \*instantaneously \*with the gun shot? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3721 "2012-07-15T12:27:45Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > No it doesn’t. > > Why do you think the screams end \*instantaneously \*with the gun shot? Two possibilities. One, Martin was screaming and stops the instant he was shot. Two, Zimmerman was screaming and stops the instant he’s no longer in danger. If Zimmerman is claiming the second as part of his defence, the prosecution absolutely do have to prove it’s not true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=185) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=187)