# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 188
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3742 "2012-07-15T19:25:34Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > There is a reason that the police had little difficulty establishing it was Zimmerman screaming for help. There is a reason they did not entertain the idea that it was a 2 minute struggle over Zimmerman’s gun. It doesn’t make sense. Why must one assume the struggle was over the gun? Zimmerman could have been trying to detain Martin. Martin could have been inflicting injury on Zimmerman while screaming because he was trying escape. This would also reflect the disparity in injuries between Martin and Zimmerman, because Zimmerman was using his hands to hold on to Martin instead of punching him. There is just as much evidence to support this scenario as there is to support Zimmermans account(i.e. not very much). The only difference is in this scenario GZ looks alot more like someone who lost their cool and used a gun when the situation turned south on him. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3743 "2012-07-15T19:27:12Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > I wouldn’t characterize his psychological state post-gun going off as “calm-and-collected”, but rather a mental and emotional detachment. > > The bottom line on it is that the psychological states of a person over the course of a highly stressful, changing event are complex, individualistic and very difficult to predict. None of what happened is “easy to predict”. Few would predict that someone would leave the safety of their vehicle to voluntarily look for a street sign in an area where the scary monster was last seen. I mean, if this had been a horror movie, even the white people would have been screaming at the screen. None of what the guy did that night makes sense, but that hasn’t stopped anyone from giving him the “reasonable guy” treatment. Fear does not work the way you seem to think it does. Not in a healthy person. If Zimmerman is not mentally healthy, he has no business walking around with a gun and I have enough reason to view his crazy-ass story with suspicion. > [@](#): > > I think a deafening gun shot- in itself- would be a psychological game-changer. It shocks the brain a bit. The brain is not independent of the body. If a person experiences shock, it registers an effect in the body. A person acts confused. They blabber. They exhibit emotions. They are sweaty and nervous. They may faint or vomit. They have problems breathing. Or they are stuporous and unresponsive. Zimmerman did not have ANY of these symptoms. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t strike me as odd that Zimmerman would stop screaming after the gunshot went off. Nor would it have struck me as particularly odd had he continued to. If he had continued screaming, I know I wouldn’t be nearly as suspicious about the claim of mortal fear. In the absence of more serious injuries, the nature of the scream and Zimmerman’s state is really all we have to go on to judge his level of fear. Behaviorally and physiological, Zimmerman was as cool as a cucumber. This _means_ something, dammit. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3744 "2012-07-15T19:28:49Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > … I don’t think that’s what he’s saying because there would be no reason for him to tell the dispatcher that his keys were in the truck… If we’re going to start discounting anything Z said because it doesn’t seem to make any sense…well that’s a whole other can of worms to open. > [@emeraldia](#): > > I could see how it might sound like “the keys are in my truck”… > I also can see how it might sound like the alarm does not stop before the door is shut. lol > [@emeraldia](#): > > Maybe the alarm continues for a second or two after the key is removed? Maybe it makes the alarm even if the key isn’t in the ignition? I hadn’t thought to think that his truck warning might be different from every other one I have had experience with. > [@emeraldia](#): > > I don’t know for sure, but it seems more likely that there is some explanation besides Zimmerman returning to his truck to retrieve them. Given the evidence, I don’t think there is anything more likely. obviously, ymmv. > [@emeraldia](#): > > Like I say, I don’t think he even had time to. He has the time. According to the Seminole CO Sheriff depart who took the call, the call starts @ 7:09 and change. The call lasts for four minutes or so. TM’s call to that girl is cut off @ 7:16 iirc. So that’s roughly 3 minutes. > [@emeraldia](#): > > If he did go back and retrieve his keys after he got off the phone with NEN, that just would have been all the more time that Trayvon Martin had to “flee” from Zimmerman. Imho, it seems a significant omission on his part. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3745 "2012-07-15T19:34:34Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Why must one assume the struggle was over the gun? Zimmerman could have been trying to detain Martin. Martin could have been inflicting injury on Zimmerman while screaming because he was trying escape. One of the major problems with that theory is Witness 6 who described the exact opposite situation. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3746 "2012-07-15T19:46:36Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > One of the major problems with that theory is Witness 6 who described the exact opposite situation. > **[Trayvon Martin: Key Zimmerman Witness Changed His Story \[VIDEO\]](https://newsone.com/2016414/george-zimmerman-trayvon/)** > > A man simply known as witness #6, who first claimed that he was positive George Zimmerman, 28, was the one screaming for help on the night that he gunned down 17-year-old Trayvon Martin as he was walking home, has now changed his story. You are mistaken ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3747 "2012-07-15T19:46:48Z")
Let’s say I accept he had the time (which I don’t) and that Zimmerman went back to get his keys (which I don’t). I’ll even help you out and say that he returned to get the keys for the flashlight that was attached. OK. What was the “fleeing” Trayvon doing while Zimmerman was returning to his truck to get his keys? Doesn’t adding the time it took for Zimmerman to return to his vehicle and then back to the T-section make it even more odd that the “fleeing” Trayvon had not made it back to the “safety” of his house? Doesn’t it make it even more clear that Trayvon was never attempting to flee, and instead doubled back to teach a nosy neighbor a lesson? ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3748 "2012-07-15T19:49:16Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > [Trayvon Martin: Key Zimmerman Witness Changed His Story [VIDEO]](http://newsone.com/2016414/george-zimmerman-trayvon/) > > You are mistaken From the article you just linked: “Witness #6 still did not change his story that he saw Trayvon straddling Zimmerman, and that he yelled for both of them to stop but they didn’t.” Trayvon was trying to escape from Zimmerman by straddling him? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3749 "2012-07-15T19:49:41Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > [Trayvon Martin: Key Zimmerman Witness Changed His Story [VIDEO]](http://newsone.com/2016414/george-zimmerman-trayvon/) > > You are mistaken No, you’re mistaken. Read the “new” testimony of Witness #6 in the released discovery files. He unequivocally maintains that Martin was pinning Zimmerman down and struggling with him. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3750 "2012-07-15T19:55:02Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > From the article you just linked: “Witness #6 still did not change his story that he saw Trayvon straddling Zimmerman, and that he yelled for both of them to stop but they didn’t.” > > Trayvon was trying to escape from Zimmerman by straddling him? If you read Witness 6’s statement, you’ll see he says that Martin was laying on top of Zimmerman. Which is not the same as straddling him. If Martin was laying rather than sitting, are you still puzzled at how he could have been trying to escape? ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3751 "2012-07-15T19:56:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, you’re mistaken. Read the “new” testimony of Witness #6 in the released discovery files. He unequivocally maintains that Martin was pinning Zimmerman down and struggling with him. Cite it. Unless he specifically describes the positions of Zimmermans arms and hands there is no evidence contrary to my speculation that Zimmerman could have been preventing Martins retreat. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3752 "2012-07-15T19:59:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, you’re mistaken. Read the “new” testimony of Witness #6 in the released discovery files. He unequivocally maintains that Martin was pinning Zimmerman down and struggling with him. He doesn’t. He says he was either punching or pinning him. If he was punching, how could he been “laying” at the same time? I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, but my brain is having an awful time imagining it. But Zimmerman says nothing about Martin pinning him down, either. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3753 "2012-07-15T20:01:36Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Let’s say I accept he had the time (which I don’t) and that Zimmerman went back to get his keys (which I don’t). I’ll even help you out and say that he returned to get the keys for the flashlight that was attached. OK. > > What was the “fleeing” Trayvon doing while Zimmerman was returning to his truck to get his keys? Doesn’t adding the time it took for Zimmerman to return to his vehicle and then back to the T-section make it even more odd that the “fleeing” Trayvon had not made it back to the “safety” of his house? Doesn’t it make it even more clear that Trayvon was never attempting to flee, and instead doubled back to teach a nosy neighbor a lesson? If the shoes Zimmerman was wearing were a new pair of Doc Martens, which appears to be the case, I doubt he was running very fast. Those thick, hard SOBs can rub the skin right off your feet before they get broken in. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3754 "2012-07-15T20:12:15Z")
A transcript of Witness 6’s statement taken from another forum, which can be corroborated here: [http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-6-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-6-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/) FDLE: At this moment, the person on the top-- how were they positioned? On– John W6: The guy, on top, was on top of the other guy, vertically. FDLE: And-- And-- You’re going to have to maybe help me with-- with “vertically.” When-- what you’re saying, was he laying down? John W6: Yeah. Laying down. Yeah. They were on the ground. Like thi-- So if I’m standing up, and I lay completely down flat, face first, it’s pretty much like if you were on top of someone wrestling. They’re on their back. He’s on, ah-- You know, he’s on top of him. FDLE: Ok. And this is your first account, when you open the door. We’re still talking about the same event. John W6: Yes. FDLE: Ok. At that moment, when you look out, and you see this person on top in a-- in a laying position, what is happening? John W6: They’re struggling. That’s what mean by wrestling at that point. I can’t tell, you know, what is going on at that point. All I know is someone is on top of the other person and I hear “Help, help, help” yelled a couple times, and me just thinking that it is the person on the bottom yelling “help.” Because, you know, just-- if anybody saw that, they probably would have thought the same thing - that the person on the bottom is yelling “Help”. If you see two guys fighting. 'Cause I couldn’t see the front side of, ah, the Black male’s face. But I could see partial, you know, front side of the guy on the bottom because his face was facing this way when he was pushing up, er, you know, they were wrestling on top of each other. And this-- and when I-- When I say how they were laying, the sidewalk out there does like this, they were at that, at that point. I don’t know if that will help. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3755 "2012-07-15T20:25:14Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Have any of the Zimmerman apostles addressed the “you are going to die tonight” fairy tale, or would acknowledging one of his lies ruin the poor innocent George narrative? What fairy tale? You think it’s impossible that Martin threatened to kill Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3756 "2012-07-15T21:08:13Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Let’s say I accept he had the time (which I don’t) and that Zimmerman went back to get his keys (which I don’t). I’ll even help you out and say that he returned to get the keys for the flashlight that was attached. OK. > > What was the “fleeing” Trayvon doing while Zimmerman was returning to his truck to get his keys? Doesn’t adding the time it took for Zimmerman to return to his vehicle and then back to the T-section make it even more odd that the “fleeing” Trayvon had not made it back to the “safety” of his house? Doesn’t it make it even more clear that Trayvon was never attempting to flee, and instead doubled back to teach a nosy neighbor a lesson? Idk about TM. I don’t have a guess as to what he was doing or not doing. But it does seem that GZ has left out and added significant details. I am not sure that whatever TM was doing has much bearing on whether or not GZ is inventing and omitting in his version of events. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3757 "2012-07-15T21:19:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What fairy tale? You think it’s impossible that Martin threatened to kill Zimmerman? GZ would have a stronger case in this regard if the phone which picked up the yelling had also picked up dialog similar to what he reported. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3758 "2012-07-15T21:33:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If you read Witness 6’s statement, you’ll see he says that Martin was laying on top of Zimmerman. Which is not the same as straddling him. Yes, it is. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3759 "2012-07-15T21:52:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, it is. > > Regards, > Shodan No, it isn’t. Kiss my ass, monstro ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3760 "2012-07-15T21:53:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > He doesn’t. He says he was either punching or pinning him. I see. That’s SO much better for prosecution than just “pinning”, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3761 "2012-07-15T22:10:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I see. That’s SO much better for prosecution than just “pinning”, isn’t it? Can you picture someone repetitively punching another person while laying on top of them? Why would they be in this awkward position and why would the person on the bottom not just push them off? Why wouldn’t Zimmerman say that he’d been pinned down, if this is what happened? He mentioned every thing else. Maybe it’s because being pinned isn’t nearly as scary as getting one’s head bashed in? To do all the things Martin supposedly did to Zimmerman, he’d have to have significant leverage. Laying down reduces leverage. Maybe Witness 6 is simply wrong in what he saw. Or maybe he just saw a sliver of a glimpse in time and didn’t see Martin reposition himself into a better fighting stance. But if this is the case, the defense can’t lean on his testimony all that much. A sliver of a glimpse doesn’t exclude Zimmerman as the aggressor. It doesn’t tell us anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=187) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=189)