# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 191
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3802 "2012-07-16T14:47:52Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I’m sorry, but I just listened to 'John’s statement and he does say that Martin was laying on top of Zimmerman. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6GS61UCxQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6GS61UCxQ) > > Go ahead to 20:00 minutes. If you fast-forward to about 26:00 in the same clip, you will hear the same witness read from his police statement in which he uses the word “straddle” to refer to what the darker-colored person was doing to the man on the bottom. I believe he misspells the word as “strattle”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3803 "2012-07-16T14:55:34Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Why did you choose the injuries, which may or may not resonate with someone as worth killing someone over, instead of the textbook clear example of when self-defense justifies a homicide? Zimmerman’s injuries are documented and provable. There is no way to prove what, if anything, Martin said. Keep in mind also that Zimmerman does not claim to have killed Martin in retaliation for Martin’s having broken his nose, blackened his eyes, and put gashes on the back of his head. Zimmerman claims that those injuries put him in fear of his life or grave bodily harm, and that’s why he shot Martin. It’s a subtle distinction, but it is important. Zimmerman did not shoot Martin because of what Martin did in the past, but out of a fear of what Martin was about to do. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3804 "2012-07-16T15:01:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > However, we \*do \*know Martin was beating up Zimmerman, for whatever reason, and **we know Zimmerman received significant injuries - severe enough to put him in fear of serious harm if not actually death**. We also know he had no means of getting away from Martin, so it doesn’t actually matter who started it. Even if we assume that George did actually fear serious harm/death, the question is, was this fear ‘reasonable’. George’s injuries are minimal. George’s claim of being sucker-punched look questionable at best. No witness claims to see the ‘head banging on concrete’ as claimed by George. Witnesses report seeing the two ‘wrestling’ on the ground. George’s hands and arms are free the whole time. How reasonable is it for George to fear bodily harm? I’m getting on an elevator. I bump the other guy already on the elevator. As the door closes he turns to me, very angry, and says, ‘what’s your problem dude’ in a threatening manner. It looks like he’s reaching into the waistband of his pocket. Am I justified and pulling out my 9mm and shooting him in the chest? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3805 "2012-07-16T15:11:21Z")
Did he blacken your eye, break your nose, and put gashes in the back of your head? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3806 "2012-07-16T15:11:53Z")
Oh my. Witness #9 is a younger family member of George’s, and she [says that George 'hates blacks](http://thegrio.com/2012/07/16/zimmerman-relative-witness-9-accusations/)’. > [@](#): > > “I don’t know what happened,” the woman said, referring to the shooting. Her voice sounded shaken and she seemed close to tears on the recording released by prosecutors last month. “I don’t know at all who this kid was, or anything else. But I know George. And I know that he does not like black people, and he would start something.” > “He’s a very confrontational person,” the woman said of Zimmerman. “It’s in his blood, let’s just say that. And I don’t … I don’t want this poor kid and their family to just be overlooked.” She contacted the police just two days after the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3807 "2012-07-16T15:13:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Did he blacken your eye, break your nose, and put gashes in the back of your head? But you just said it didn’t matter what happened earlier. You said I can shoot him out of fear for what he’s about to do. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3808 "2012-07-16T15:18:25Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > But you just said it didn’t matter what happened earlier. You said I can shoot him out of fear for what he’s about to do. It doesn’t matter what Shodan said before, it only matters what he’s about to say … ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3809 "2012-07-16T15:23:47Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > George’s injuries are minimal. No, they aren’t. He had a broken nose and several other head wounds. They are, by any definition, serious. If Martin had stopped attacking him after inflicting these wounds, he’d have been charge with a serious crime. That he continued to attack makes it worse. Of course Zimmerman’s fear was reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3810 "2012-07-16T15:25:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, they aren’t. He had a broken nose and several other head wounds. They are, by any definition, serious. If Martin had stopped attacking him after inflicting these wounds, he’d have been charge with a serious crime. That he continued to attack makes it worse. Of course Zimmerman’s fear was reasonable. He got punched in the nose. What amounts to no more than a schoolyard scuffle does not justify pulling a gun and blowing away and unarmed teenager. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3811 "2012-07-16T15:27:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, they aren’t. He had a broken nose and several other head wounds. They are, by any definition, serious. If Martin had stopped attacking him after inflicting these wounds, he’d have been charge with a serious crime. That he continued to attack makes it worse. Of course Zimmerman’s fear was reasonable. He had a _possible_ broken nose. And again, why would Martin be charged if he was merely defending himself from the crazy stalker guy now trying to detain him? Even if we play along and assume that Martin sucker-punched George completely unprovoked, if you seriously think George’s injuries justify death, then every playground fight in the history of the world should justifiably end up with one dead kid with a hole in his chest. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3812 "2012-07-16T15:31:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, they aren’t. He had a broken nose and several other head wounds. They are, by any definition, serious. If Martin had stopped attacking him after inflicting these wounds, he’d have been charge with a serious crime. That he continued to attack makes it worse. Of course Zimmerman’s fear was reasonable. The problem is that if the beating had continued, Zimmerman could have been the one who perished. A human being, even punch drunk prize fighters, no matter how well conditioned, can only take so many blows to the head. A slam to the head can break open a blood vessel in the brain, and that’s all she wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3813 "2012-07-16T15:32:06Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > But you just said it didn’t matter what happened earlier. You said I can shoot him out of fear for what he’s about to do. And that fear has to be reasonable. Zimmerman claims that his fear was reasonable, because Martin broke his nose, blackened his eyes, and put gashes in the back of his head. Your incredibly stupid scenario does not include anything equivalent. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3814 "2012-07-16T15:37:34Z")
Oh my…Witness 9 also claims GZ molested her beginning at age 6, until she was 16. [https://twitter.com/JeffWeinerOS](https://twitter.com/JeffWeinerOS) Is her ‘he hates blacks’ statement just out of revenge? Wonder what this will do to the donations flow. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3815 "2012-07-16T15:43:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And that fear has to be reasonable. Zimmerman claims that his fear was reasonable, because Martin broke his nose, blackened his eyes, and put gashes in the back of his head. > > Your incredibly stupid scenario does not include anything equivalent. As noted in the EMT records, the ‘black eyes’ (can you even show me one picture of George with black eyes?) probably came from the ‘possibly’ broken nose. The cuts on the head are not evidence of repeated ‘head slammed against concrete’ - particularly when George says that he thinks only a part of his head was on the concrete, so he could wiggle a bit to get on the grass, which is odd because the cuts are right at the top and center of the head, not the side. And Martin had already stopped with the head banging, right? He was now trying to shut George up, and both hands were on George’s face. George’s hands and arms were free, and he outweights Martin by a good 40lbs. You’re seriously going to claim that George had no choice but to blow the kid away? And we wonder why other countries look at the US’ fascination with guns and just shake their collective head. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3816 "2012-07-16T15:46:16Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Oh my…Witness 9 also claims GZ molested her beginning at age 6, until she was 16. > > [https://twitter.com/JeffWeinerOS](https://twitter.com/JeffWeinerOS) > > Is her ‘he hates blacks’ statement just out of revenge? Wonder what this will do to the donations flow. Witness 9, aka Witness Lyin’, is a certifiable fruit basket. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3817 "2012-07-16T15:47:49Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Witness 9, aka Witness Lyin’, is a certifiable fruit basket. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3818 "2012-07-16T15:59:11Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > You’re seriously going to claim that George had no choice but to blow the kid away? I’m claiming that he had the right to “blow him away”. If you want to argue that he shouldn’t be allowed to defend himself against a brutal attack, fair enough, but don’t confuse that with saying he _wasn’t_ allowed to. > [@](#): > > And we wonder why other countries look at the US’ fascination with guns and just shake their collective head. I’m **from** another country, and I have very mixed feelings about your gun obsession. There’s plenty of things that makes me think widespread gun ownership is a bad idea, but someone successfully using one in self defence isn’t one. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3819 "2012-07-16T16:18:32Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Cite? The witness said something bad about poor victimized Georgie, so therefore by definition they must be lying. Nothing bad about George could possibly be true. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3820 "2012-07-16T16:34:11Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Oh my…Witness 9 also claims GZ molested her beginning at age 6, until she was 16. > > [https://twitter.com/JeffWeinerOS](https://twitter.com/JeffWeinerOS) Do you have a link to the actual witness statement? Or, for that matter, any reason to consider these claims relevant to this case? If there’s any substance to these claims, it should be a separate investigation. > [@](#): > > Is her ‘he hates blacks’ statement just out of revenge? Wonder what this will do to the donations flow. It doesn’t fit with his actions mentoring black children and protesting against police racism, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/3821 "2012-07-16T16:35:05Z")
That said, nothing from Witness 9 really has any bearing on the case. She claims George ‘hate blacks’, but nothing of the sort comes out of all the witness statements. We do have a possible violent streak (kicking a dog? Really? And attacking a LEO who has identified themselves as such is pretty ballsy), but I don’t recall any character report citing incidents of racism. So George may be a cheatin’, lyin’, molestin’ S.O.B. but at least he’s not a racist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=190) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=192)