# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 207
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4122 "2012-07-19T15:05:29Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > See, this is why I don’t trust the motives of the Zimmerman defenders. It just doesn’t seem credible to me that a person couldn’t understand why Martin might have been in fear for his life. > > … **This is got to be like the reason all the gun nuts buy guns, so they can defend themselves if they ever find themselves in this situation**. > > …I just don’t believe anyone who pretends something different would happen; I no longer find them credible. Can I assume that you believe that Zimmerman is guilty because he was carrying a firearm? Martin may or may not have been afraid of Zimmerman but there doesn’t appear to be any reason for Martin to have been afraid for his life. Afraid of being robbed or afraid of being mugged but not afraid of being killed. No less an authority than the State of Florida permitted Zimmerman to carry a firearm. Even the prosecution won’t question Zimmermans having a firearm. Where does that leave YOUR argument? Assuming you and I were members of the jury, in the jury room, you’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. The court expects the 6 (or 12) jurors to reach an agreement on the verdict. No consencious means no guilty verdict. A hung jury. The State can always chose to retry the case. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4123 "2012-07-19T15:11:50Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Can I assume that you believe that Zimmerman is guilty because he was carrying a firearm? No. > [@](#): > > Martin may or may not have been afraid of Zimmerman but there doesn’t appear to be any reason for Martin to have been afraid for his life. Afraid of being robbed or afraid of being mugged but not afraid of being killed. Does this mean you don’t think it’s allowable to use a gun to prevent a mugging? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4124 "2012-07-19T15:15:16Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Cool. > > Hey, I have a question that maybe you can help me with: I was at bat watching the pitcher wind up when I remembered an old news story about a batter killed by a wild pitch. > > So I shot the fucker. Self-defense, right? Which team were you playing for, the Strawmen or the Red Herrings? ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4125 "2012-07-19T15:19:48Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Zimmerman on TV last night. > > Notice how he stops and remembers to throw in the ‘mentored kids’ tidbit. Nice touch. Innocent persons still make self-serving statements. No surprise. > [@](#): > > He says he had never heard of Stand Your Ground, which strikes me as extremely odd and unlikely coming from someone that was taking criminal justice courses and wanted to be a cop or judge. He could be telling the truth. Or it could have been a self-serving statement. Either way, not relevant. > [@](#): > > Initially, George says that he thought Martin was suspicious because he was just ‘stopped, standing in the rain’ looking at the houses, didn’t appear to be exercising etc. Here, he says that Martin was ‘walking leisurely in the rain’. What I don’t get: Martin was by the short-cut used by dozens of kids every day - I’ll bet some of them are even black! - and it’s right by his buddy’s house, so George would know it was often used as a short-cut. He’s driving by - he couldn’t have possibly had enough time to see that Martin was specifically ‘stopped and starting at the houses’. He clearly had to have _stopped_ at the bend on RVC to watch Martin. No wonder Martin went from ‘walking leisurely in a light rain’ while talking to his girlfriend, to ‘stopping and staring’ at the white bald-headed guy in a truck that’s stopped specifically to stare at Martin. Staring at Zimmerman wasn’t the issue. It was battering him that was the issue. > [@](#): > > George thinks Martin was skipping. Skipping. :rolleyes: I doubt he meant that he was literally skipping. I know what he was saying. Trayvon was doing the fast “gangster-walk” where it kinda looks like skipping. > [@](#): > > [COLOR=#000000]So he’s seriously moving up the timeline - obviously trying to get around the ‘you spent two minutes after hanging up trying to find Martin’. I don’t see how this meshes with the other 911 calls at all. He saw Martin 30 seconds after he got off the phone. _Obviously_, it wasn’t 30 seconds after he left his car. A lot of the seeming “contradictions” and “lies” of Zimmerman are nothing more than imprecise descriptions, awkward phrasing, or things taken out of the context in which they are intended. This is all his prosecutors (and persecutors) have. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4126 "2012-07-19T15:26:13Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > That really doesn’t explain the decision to search for a street sign in the middle of the block, imho. On the first street, he knew an address, but couldn’t think of the street name. On the second street, he knew the name, but didn’t have an address. So it was the address he was looking for. By the way, this entire line of dubiousness is irrelevant anyway. He is allowed to exit his own vehicle and move freely around his own neighborhood for whatever reason he wants to. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4127 "2012-07-19T15:41:48Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > After the young ruffian’s unsuccessful efforts to intimidate Mr. Zimmerman, he appeared to flee the vicinity. Believing this to be true, Mr. Zimmerman exited his vehicle to find out where he had gone. This brought him several seconds away from a street he knew the name of. So, he wasn’t following or chasing Martin, Golly gee no. NO, he just wanted to see ‘where Martin had gone’. I guess that’s the modern way of saying 'it depends on what your definition of ‘it’ is. :rolleyes::rolleyes: > [@emeraldia](#): > > So he walked a little bit further to get an address on it. This almost sounds is semi-plausible…except that he then says that he got to the otherside of the cut-through, didn’t get the address and instead decided to walk -back- to his car on the street with the name he said he couldn’t remember. So how does that work again? > [@](#): > > The young ruffian attacked Mr. Zimmerman without relent until Zimmerman was left with no choice but to defend himself Without relent, you say! Oh my. That sounds awful. I’m sure George looked like [this](http://schmoesknow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/PunchedFace.jpeg) afterwards. Or [this](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_WCrIotSdkFA/STrpWF5iALI/AAAAAAAAA6c/cVAcmo9-hjY/s1600/broken%2Bnose). Or this [guy](http://en.minghui.org/emh/article_images/2006-2-9-liyuan-02.jpg). No, actually, he didn’t [look like that at all](http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_ll_120518_wg.jpg). > [@](#): > > And if Trayvon didn’t beat up George, then who did? Oh, I didn’t realize that the only way people can get small cuts on their nose and such is by being savagely beaten. I guess no one can get such cuts by wrestling with someone on rough terrain. You know, just like all the witnesses say happened? I gotta say, I love the GZ supporters. Everything George says that hasn’t been contradicted yet, is Straight From the Mountain ™ Gospel truth, unless it implications him or contradicts something George said earlier, in which case it’s ‘Well, he’s been through such tramatic experience, shooting that un-armed kid; you can understand if he doesn’t really remember everything’. You guys are nothing if not consistent (which is more than we can say for George’s stories). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4128 "2012-07-19T15:44:44Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Without relent, you say! Oh my. That sounds awful. I’m sure George looked like [this](http://schmoesknow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/PunchedFace.jpeg) afterwards. Or [this](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_WCrIotSdkFA/STrpWF5iALI/AAAAAAAAA6c/cVAcmo9-hjY/s1600/broken%2Bnose). Or this [guy](http://en.minghui.org/emh/article_images/2006-2-9-liyuan-02.jpg). No, actually, he didn’t [look like that at all](http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_ll_120518_wg.jpg). Wait, I thought he had his nose broken? That doesn’t look like someone with a broken nose. Is he lying about that too? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4129 "2012-07-19T15:46:40Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > No. > > Does this mean you don’t think it’s allowable to use a gun to prevent a mugging? Is your life in danger? Did they threaten to kill, cripple, or injure you? Did they brandish a knife, or club, swing a sack of stolen electronics at you? Strong Arm Robbery is a 2nd degree felony in Florida. It’s the intentional and unlawful taking of money or property from another person through the use of force, violence, assault, or threat of force, violence, and assault. Florida law allows anyone to use of lethal force to defend their life. There’s nothing in FLA law about asking the opinion of bystanders as to whether they think you’ve been beaten sufficiently before you can defend your life. Was Zimmerman’s life in danger according to Zimmerman? Can the State prove that Zimmerman’s life wasn’t or couldn’t have been in danger? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4130 "2012-07-19T15:48:13Z")
I struggle to find anything redeeming about this man. Really, I do. Between the “oh noes, Martin wasn’t scared…he skipped away, didn’t run” and the “I regret absolutely nothing becuz it all was God’s will…I’m sorry the Martin’s had to bury their child”, I don’t see how this interview has helped his image. It would be one thing if he admitted to seeing things that might humanize Martin and show that he has considered things from the kid’s point of view. Like Martin running. What does it really cost him to admit the kid had run away? I mean, it ain’t like we don’t have tape recorded evidence of him saying, multiple times, that Martin ran. So why not just admit the kid ran? He could have been frightened or he could have suddenly just been trying to get out of the rain. _Why_ he ran is subject to conjecture, and Zimmerman could have just said “I don’t know for sure why he ran…it’s speculative and I try not to speculate.” Instead of doing this, he went the more juvenile route of claiming that Martin _skipped_ rather than ran. Because people who skip, apparently, are never afraid. In fact, they are full of cheer and merriment, like flower girls. But then we’re left with an image of _skipping_ thug singing tra-la-la in the rain and it doesn’t quite gel with the rest of the ass-kicking narrative GZ has created. GZ’s problem is that he chooses to lie, even when lying is unnecessary or likely to backfire. This is what makes him a bad liar. Good liars don’t just lie convincingly; they are strategic with their lies. I think GZ lies because its easier for him to do that than to consider whether the truth will suffice at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4131 "2012-07-19T15:51:09Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > I doubt he meant that he was literally skipping. I know what he was saying. Trayvon was doing the fast “gangster-walk” where it kinda looks like skipping. See, it’s shit like this that you drop throughout this thread that make it clear that you aren’t even in the ballpark of objectivity. What the living fuck is the “fast ‘gangster walk’” you speak of? And how the hell do you speak with such certainty that “I know what he was saying?” I think GZ apologists are having a hard time reconciling the reality of GZ as an everyman, Michael Douglas in _Falling Down_ standing up to the big, bad, dark criminal bogeymen that torment our lives. He’s not. He’s a fuck up at best and quite possibly a lying, cowardly moron who couldn’t take an ass whooping like a man and used a gun to cover it all up. The reason I call him a fuck up is that nothing of his surveillance makes any sense - once he identified a potential “threat” his job was done. Get the description, let LEOs take over. He lives in a community where he is supposed to be a neighborhood watch patrol person and doesn’t know the names of streets? Seems like he isn’t qualified to have that position. My four year old son knows the names of the four streets in my subdivision. Where does GZ live, in a labyrinth? And this idea that he’s looking for a house number? Shit, how about “halfway in the block,” or “towards the end of the block that intersects with X street?” There was no need to tail Martin. No need to get out of the vehicle. You cannot seriously defend this “neighborhood watch” tactic, because it means a lot of fake-ass cops are going to get hurt. Then there’s the perspective from Martin. I know it is probably difficult for some of you to imagine yourself as a 17 year old Black male, but if you could, you would know that groups like the Klan exist. White supremacists have injured, maimed, and killed Black men for fun. Two shitheads were shooting innocent Black people in Tulsa in April, remember? How about that asshole teenager that ran over an innocent Black man in Mississippi a few years ago? James Byrd, anyone? So when you are walking down - excuse me, “fast gangster walking” - down the street and you are being followed, without provocation, you are probably not expecting Mister Rogers coming out to say hi. It is not irrational to believe that this person means you harm - you might have tried to hide, but they are coming after you. And of course this isn’t the movies. Someone trying to hurt you might pretend to be friendly, like the Mississippi teenager or the Byrd lynchers. So you might decide to _stand your ground_ and incapacitate someone who might have that intent for you. Because nobody avoiding a confrontation is going to escalate it by leaving the safety of their vehicle. Go ahead, consider it for a moment. And let’s not wave away the three incidents of racially targeted violence that have occurred recently (yes, I know that the Tulsa situation was after the shooting, but trust me, there have been many more incidents of Black men being targeted and victimized). I want to hear your mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4132 "2012-07-19T16:06:56Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Is your life in danger? Did they threaten to kill, cripple, or injure you? Did they brandish a knife, or club, swing a sack of stolen electronics at you? > > Strong Arm Robbery is a 2nd degree felony in Florida. It’s the intentional and unlawful taking of money or property from another person through the use of force, violence, assault, or threat of force, violence, and assault. > > Florida law allows anyone to use of lethal force to defend their life. There’s nothing in FLA law about asking the opinion of bystanders as to whether they think you’ve been beaten sufficiently before you can defend your life. So, you think it was reasonable for Martin to fear that he was going to be mugged. Since a high percentage of muggings turn bad, it must have been reasonable for Martin to fear for his life. OK, you’ve convinced me; Martin was in fear for his life when he ran from Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4133 "2012-07-19T16:13:51Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Wait, I thought he had his nose broken? That doesn’t look like someone with a broken nose. Is he lying about that too? Cite? Evidence that confirms he had a broken nose? Besides George telling everyone he had a broken nose, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4134 "2012-07-19T16:16:21Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Cite? Evidence that confirms he had a broken nose? Just what people in this thread have been saying. If the broken nose thing is more of Zimmerman’s lies, that makes the shooting even less justified. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4135 "2012-07-19T16:21:14Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > A lot of the seeming “contradictions” and “lies” of Zimmerman are nothing more than imprecise descriptions, awkward phrasing, or things taken out of the context in which they are intended. This is all his prosecutors (and persecutors) have. I liked how Jeralyn said it. > [@](#): > > Hannity asked him direct factual questions about the shooting. He didn’t get flustered, and his answers were consistent with his statements to police. (No one should expect the answers to be identical, so nit-picking minor inconsistencies is a waste of time as far as I’m concerned – only those who are convinced of his guilt would even bother.) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4136 "2012-07-19T16:23:48Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > A lot of the seeming “contradictions” and “lies” of Zimmerman are nothing more than imprecise descriptions, awkward phrasing, or things taken out of the context in which they are intended. This is all his prosecutors (and persecutors) have. I liked how Jeralyn said it. > [@](#): > > Hannity asked him direct factual questions about the shooting. He didn’t get flustered, and his answers were consistent with his statements to police. (No one should expect the answers to be identical, so nit-picking minor inconsistencies is a waste of time as far as I’m concerned – only those who are convinced of his guilt would even bother.) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4137 "2012-07-19T16:53:48Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Wait, I thought he had his nose broken? That doesn’t look like someone with a broken nose. Is he lying about that too? No that was verified by the paramedic as the scene and the clinic he was treated at and even one of the officers at the scene said that his nose was probably broken. You really should familiarize yourself with the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4138 "2012-07-19T16:55:09Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Cite? Evidence that confirms he had a broken nose? Besides George telling everyone he had a broken nose, I mean. No that was verified by the paramedic at the scene and the clinic he was treated at and even one of the officers at the scene said that his nose was probably broken. You really should familiarize yourself with the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4139 "2012-07-19T16:58:06Z")
You’re hilarious. Your cite is that it was ‘verified’ that it was ‘probably’ broken. Yes, that’s EXACTLY the same thing as evidence that his nose was broken. By the way - your posts are bad enough once; they don’t get any better with repetition. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4140 "2012-07-19T17:08:25Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I can imagine that being beaten by 142 women would be pretty scary. > > Clearly, this is evidence that we should just shoot anyone that looks like they might be approaching us. Self defense! I gave several links relating to people killed as the result of a single punch. Your post doesn’t answer that argument in any way. I’ll assume, then, this means you cannot, and instead of admitting that it’s a good point, you chose this approach. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4141 "2012-07-19T17:10:05Z")
I’m really curious, why do the interview? I guess it could be a way to potentially increase funding for Z’s defense as mentioned. I guess it could be a way of trying the case to all the potential jurors… In a civil context, absent extraordinary circumstances and a very intelligent client, I would strangle my own client before I would allow such an interview. Maybe it’s just different in a criminal context. **Bricker** , any thoughts about the rationale behind this? Do you think O’Mara objected to it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=206) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=208)