# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 216
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4302 "2012-07-21T16:10:47Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > This timeline is inaccurate. > From your cited site. > [\*The Seminole County Sheriff’s Office, which handled the call, reported it came in at 1909:34.](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino) > > Examining the event log reveals that the Sheriff’s Office got it right. > > So we have an extra 2 minutes in there. Amazing. You quote the same article I did and you got it wrong. Try actually reading the time line. > [@](#): > > 1915:23 - Approximate time call with Zimmerman ends > 1916:43 - 911 call placed by (blacked out name) where Zimmerman is heard screaming for help ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4303 "2012-07-21T16:24:22Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Amazing. You quote the same article I did and you got it wrong. Try actually reading the time line. The article is wrong. The article notes the timeline is wrong. I posted a link to the actual call record above. But hey, if you want to continue using incorrect evidence on purpose, go right ahead. I suppose it’s your only option if you’re intent on believing everything Saint George says despite evidence that proves he’s lying. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4304 "2012-07-21T16:28:54Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Amazing. You quote the same article I did and you got it wrong. What exactly did I get wrong? That the SCSO who handled the call says the time line is different from what you posted? Is that what you think I got wrong? Do you think I got wrong the part about how if you examine the event log you can see that the SCSO got the time that they received the call correct? What exactly did I get wrong? > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Try actually reading the time line. :rolleyes: You didn’t realize that **I posted a quote from the article you posted**. Didn’t you read the whole thing, did you? The line I quoted is at the bottom of the article. They used an asterisk and made a note. I posted the note that I think you failed to read. Here’s the quote again and a link to the page with the quoted section highlighted: [\*The Seminole County Sheriff’s Office, which handled the call, reported it came in at 1909:34.](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_GSWU1atsswJ:articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino+The+Seminole+County+Sheriff's+Office,+which+handled+the+call,+reported+it+came+in+at+1909:34&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) w/e ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4305 "2012-07-21T16:30:53Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > They dOnt have to be to justify self defense do they? ( on tray one part) v The prosecution must disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4306 "2012-07-21T16:49:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The prosecution must disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. I know nothing about the law, but every instance I can recall when two people got into a fight and one ends up dead, there’s usually a manslaughter trial, and it’s never been for life. Considering the dead person got no injuries, beyond a bullet to the heart, which makes even the fight part dubious, why is this one different? ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4307 "2012-07-21T17:35:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > His doing this interview is symptomatic of him vastly overestimating his capacity to persuade people. You almost can’t blame him. There have probably been plenty of people he has manipulated over the course of his life. Are you his biographer now? > [@](#): > > Despite the two new inconsistencies that were revealed (Martin’s skipping and his new reason for exiting his car) Everybody knows that at least one of the reasons he left his car was to see where the young bad hat was headed. — And, once again, basing a case on the seeming contradictions stemming from awkward phrasing, imprecise descriptions, and figures of speech taken out of context really just means it’s a very poor case. > [@](#): > > And the most gaping holes (the discrepant distance between where he claims he was punched and where Martin was shot His cellphone was found where he said he was punched. There are also witnesses that heard the altercation move from the T down the sidewalk to where the assailant was found. , > [@](#): > > the irreconciliabiity of Martin suffocating him with being the voice screaming on that tape At one point, Trayvon tried to cover Zimmerman’s face and nose. But this was obviously not the only thing his attacker was trying to do. This is a very contrived “inconsistency”, that only works if you blow one element of Zimmerman’s account to having grossly distorted significance. > [@](#): > > the bullet trajectory taken together with Martin’s supposed position on top of Zimmerman) Witnesses saw him on top. His body was found laying face down. I’ve heard no credible statements that there is anything of particular significance about the “bullet trajectory”, and suspect it will be of no to piddling importance in the trial. > [@](#): > > remain gaping. If those are the gaping inconsistencies, then which ones do you consider minor? What is gaping are the holes in the body of evidence to convict him. > [@](#): > > He hasn’t bothered to explain these away, which I would have thought he would have if he’s been paying attention to what ppl on the internet have been talking about. Why give the prosecution a heads up on what he’s going to say? > [@](#): > > The issues he continues to embellish seem to indicate that Zimmerman is more concerned about minimizing Martin’s claim to self-defense than shoring up the weaknesses in his own claim of such. He thinks that if he can convince us that 1) Martin was not afraid of him and 2) Zimmerman did not confront him, then all is gravy. But this is tactically stupid. Out of everything in this case, both 1) and 2) are corroborated by the strongest evidence. Deedee will tell the court that Martin was afraid of Z. Zimmerman’s call to non-emergency will reveal GZ saying Martin was running from him. The same call will reveal Z admitting to following Martin because these “assholes always get away”. The same call _will not_ reveal Zimmerman telling the dispatcher he is trying to find a street sign. So it makes little sense for him to invest in lying about these details when these are the two easiest details for the prosecution to disprove. Dumbass. The timeline of events and the physical locations should be well known to the jury by the end of the trial. That alone should cast more than reasonable doubt on the idea that Martin was running home scared for his life. Even by DeeDee’s account, Trayvon was near his house (and _knew_ he was near his house), said “I’m not running anymore” (or something like that), and initiated the verbal confrontation with Captain Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4308 "2012-07-21T17:56:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The prosecution must disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. Yes they must. But to be justified in “self defending” Trayvon doesn’t have to be beyond a reasonable doubt that he is in danger right? Is it reasonable to believe that somebody exiting a vehicle in the dark to follow you down a cut through wishes you ill? isn’t that all Trayvon needs to show to be allowed to defend himself from George? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4309 "2012-07-21T18:08:17Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Everybody knows that at least one of the reasons he left his car was to see where the young bad hat was headed. — And, once again, basing a case on the seeming contradictions stemming from awkward phrasing, imprecise descriptions, and figures of speech taken out of context really just means it’s a very poor case. If everyone knows this, you might want to tell GZ. He keeps telling people he left his car for reasons that had nothing to do with following Martin. First it was a street sign, now it was “to meet the cops”. You might want to ask him why he can’t just be straight with America and just admit he got his ass out of his truck to take after the kid trying to run away from him. > [@](#): > > His cellphone was found where he said he was punched. There are also witnesses that heard the altercation move from the T down the sidewalk to where the assailant was found. Very good. But the question is not what did the witnesses say about the altercation. The question is what does Zimmerman say about it. According to him, he hit the ground immediately after he was punched at the T and stayed there until he shot Martin. The kid ended up killed sbout 50 feet south of the T. Zimmerman needs to explain how the fight traveled that distance. Are you sure Z’s cellphone was found at the T? It was my understanding that his keys and flashlight were found in that area. The flashlight was on. > [@](#): > > At one point, Trayvon tried to cover Zimmerman’s face and nose. But this was obviously not the only thing his attacker was trying to do. This is a very contrived “inconsistency”, that only works if you blow one element of Zimmerman’s account to having grossly distorted significance. What else was the attacker “obviously” trying to do? At the point when Zimmerman shot Martin, the kid supposedly had been trying to smother the guy with one hand. His other arm had been pinned by Z, supposedly. Unless he was an octopus, there was little else he could have done. > [@](#): > > I’ve heard no credible statements that there is anything of particular significance about the “bullet trajectory”, and suspect it will be of no to piddling importance in the trial. You wanna bet? Here’s a blog discussing the straight to back trajectory of that bullet and the problems it poses for the defense, in addition to other improbabilities in GZ’s statement. I can’t vouch for its accuracy 100%, but the arguments appear well-supported and informed. > **[The Strata-Sphere » Zimmerman’s Guilded Lies Sealed His Fate](http://www.strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/18585)** > [@](#): > > Why give the prosecution a heads up on what he’s going to say? Because he is a gigantic idiot, that’s why. I can’t even believe you’re asking this question. > [@](#): > > The timeline of events and the physical locations should be well known to the jury by the end of the trial. That alone should cast more than reasonable doubt on the idea that Martin was running home scared for his life. Even by DeeDee’s account, Trayvon was near his house (and _knew_ he was near his house), said “I’m not running anymore” (or something like that), and initiated the verbal confrontation with Captain Zimmerman. Martin is not on trial. He was under no obligation to run home in a set timeframe, and the jury can not infer wrongdoing on his part just because he didn’t succeed in running away from Zimmerman. This is what Zimmerman defenders keep forgetting, and so too does Zimmerman. That’s why he keeps lying about what Martin said and did. But none of these lies absolve him of the crime he’s been charged with. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4310 "2012-07-21T18:30:17Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Yes they must. > > But to be justified in “self defending” Trayvon doesn’t have to be beyond a reasonable doubt that he is in danger right? How is that relevant to Zimmerman’s self defense claim? > [@](#): > > Is it reasonable to believe that somebody exiting a vehicle in the dark to follow you down a cut through wishes you ill? isn’t that all Trayvon needs to show to be allowed to defend himself from George? You convinced me. Trayvon should not be convicted. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4311 "2012-07-21T18:33:55Z")
In all the discovery document dumps, has there been any description of how Martin’s body was oriented? I know this was something **Stoid** and others had pointed out months ago (and it was dismissed by as junior csi-ing). It was asserted that Martin’s body was positioned with his feet pointed east (towards the sidewalk) and his head pointed west. Since this position can’t be reconciled with Zimmerman’s story, this could be another oopsie daisy for the defense. Has this been verified yet? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4312 "2012-07-21T18:52:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > …It was asserted that Martin’s body was positioned with his feet pointed east (towards the sidewalk) and his head pointed west. **Since this position can’t be reconciled with Zimmerman’s story** , this could be another oopsie daisy for the defense. > > Has this been verified yet? Reconciled how exactly? Are you suggesting that Zimmerman or an eyewitness moved the body before the police arrived? The 1st responder would have turned Martin face up and sealed the chest wound before performing chest compressions. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4313 "2012-07-21T19:00:02Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > The most gaping holes are a) he says it was ‘less than 30 seconds’ between hanging up the phone and him running into Martin. But we know there is over two minutes of unexplained time between the end of GZ’s NEN call and the start of the fight. **7:13:41** — Zimmerman’s call to Sanford police ends.[12] He puts his phone away, looks around for a street address, and then decides to head back to his truck. He begins to cross the “T”. \*7:14:11 \*(30 seconds later) From behind and to the left, the assailant springs his ambush. _Assailant_: “What are you following me for…mother fucker!!!” _Captain Zimmerman_: "Good evening, my name is George Zimmerman and I am a participant in the local neighborhood watch program. We’ve had several break-ins in the area and I don’t recognize you. You approached my car and then you bounded off in this direction. I was not “following” you per se, I just wanted to keep an eye on you. Now that I’ve identified myself and addressed any potential concerns on your part, might I ask, “What are you doing here?” _Assailant_: "Get off, get off, get off… my jock, mother fucker! [Throws his cell phone to the ground.] Do you think I give a fuck who you are? Nobody asks _me_ questions, you motherfucking bitch! Do you got a problem, homie? _Captain Zimmerman_: No sir, I do not. [Reaches for phone] _Assailant_: "Well, you do now, mother fucker! _7:14:41_ [PUNCH] Captain Zimmerman falls to the ground and he and the assailant grapple for about 45 seconds as the assault slowly moves down the pathway. _7:15:26_ (45 seconds into the beating), Zimmerman and his assailant are in a location that can be heard by some of the residents. Zimmerman begins yelling. Hearing the loud noises, people think it’s dogs or children horsing around. But after the noise continues for about 15 seconds they turn off their TV’s to listen, head to their windows to see what’s going on, or open their back door to try to intervene. _7:15:41_ After investigating the noise and determining that something bad was happening, they decide they will call the police, and so they walk to their kitchen, pick up their phone, and then dial 911. **7:16:11** — First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[14] **7:16:55** — Gunshot heard on 911 call.[15] > [@](#): > > The only way both of these facts can be true is if the fight lasted for a -lot- longer than is thought as of now. And -that- scenario is not a good one for George, because it’s going to be very hard for him to say with a straight face that he was ‘savagely beaten’ for over two minutes yet comes out with a couple of scratches, practically no blood anywhere, jeans look fine, etc. A broken nose, two vertical lacerations on the back of his head, blood covering 45% of his head, and grass stains on the back of his pants and shirt, is what you meant to say I’m sure. > [@](#): > > He continues to insist on his physically impossible story of making the NEN phone call at the Clubhouse, then driving down to the stopping point on TTL, where Martin ‘circles his car’ and runs away. Not only is it pretty much impossible for Martin to do all that walking in that length of time…why does George want to say he immediately got out of his car to chase after a suspicious, possibly armed dude that just threateningly circled his car? Impossible? On the contrary, Martin had at least four or five times as much time as was actually needed for him to walk home safely. He not only wasn’t home, but he was at or near the T-section. Zimmerman’s call alone lasted 4 minutes and 7 seconds. Bring up Google Earth and do the measurements. Even using _walking_ speed, he could have easily made it home. But he was at the T-section, eh? Oh, and Dee Dee said he was running as fast as his little legs could carry him straight home and was out of breath- So calculate running speed on top of that. I mean.. it’s a big joke. And the jury will have to recognize that. > **[Timeline of the killing of Trayvon Martin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin)** > > The following is a timeline of the events surrounding the death of teenager Trayvon Martin on February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida. Martin was shot and killed by neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman during a physical altercation. Zimmerman was charged with second-degree murder in April 2012, and found not guilty on July 13, 2013. > Trayvon Martin and his father Tracy travel to Sanford, Florida from Miami where they stay with Tracy Martin's fiancée. She rents a townhome in the Retreat ... ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4314 "2012-07-21T19:16:42Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > …Here’s a blog discussing the straight to back trajectory of that bullet and the problems it poses for the defense, in addition to other improbabilities in GZ’s statement. I can’t vouch for its accuracy 100%, but the arguments appear well-supported and informed. Will AJStrata be called by either the prosecution or the defense to testify under oath as to his “findings”? Will AJStrata be cross-examinated? He has interesting “theories”. I’m sure the judge and jury would love to hear how he responds to the lawyers questions about those theories. The barrel of the firearm was pointed directly at Martin’s heart when the shot was fired and the bullet traveled from front to back. Stippling indicates that the weapon was not held against Martins chest when it was fired. The presence of stippling also indicates that the firearm was not more than 2 feet away. During a life and death struggle, is it possible that during that struggle, Martin pinned Zimmerman’s arm to his side? For how long would it have been pinned there? Is it possible that Zimmerman managed to draw his firearm during the struggle? Is it possible that Zimmerman managed to point his weapon in the general direction of Martin? Is it possible that Martin and Zimmerman were struggling for the weapon when it fired? Was Zimmerman’s elbow in contact with the ground when the firearm was discharged? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4315 "2012-07-21T19:19:32Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > **7:13:41** — Zimmerman’s call to Sanford police ends.[12] > > He puts his phone away, looks around for a street address, and then decides to head back to his truck. He begins to cross the “T”. > \*7:14:11 \*(30 seconds later) From behind and to the left, the assailant springs his ambush. > > _Assailant_: “What are you following me for…mother fucker!!!” > _Captain Zimmerman_: "Good evening, my name is George Zimmerman and I am a participant in the local neighborhood watch program. We’ve had several break-ins in the area and I don’t recognize you. You approached my car and then you bounded off in this direction. I was not “following” you per se, I just wanted to keep an eye on you. Now that I’ve identified myself and addressed any potential concerns on your part, might I ask, “What are you doing here?” > _Assailant_: "Get off, get off, get off… my jock, mother fucker! [Throws his cell phone to the ground.] Do you think I give a fuck who you are? Nobody asks _me_ questions, you motherfucking bitch! Do you got a problem, homie? > _Captain Zimmerman_: No sir, I do not. [Reaches for phone] > _Assailant_: "Well, you do now, mother fucker! > > _7:14:41_ [PUNCH] Captain Zimmerman falls to the ground and he and the assailant grapple for about 45 seconds as the assault slowly moves down the pathway. > _7:15:26_ (45 seconds into the beating), Zimmerman and his assailant are in a location that can be heard by some of the residents. Zimmerman begins yelling. Hearing the loud noises, people think it’s dogs or children horsing around. But after the noise continues for about 15 seconds they turn off their TV’s to listen, head to their windows to see what’s going on, or open their back door to try to intervene. > _7:15:41_ After investigating the noise and determining that something bad was happening, they decide they will call the police, and so they walk to their kitchen, pick up their phone, and then dial 911. > **7:16:11** — First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[14] > **7:16:55** — Gunshot heard on 911 call.[15] > A broken nose, two vertical lacerations on the back of his head, blood covering 45% of his head, and grass stains on the back of his pants and shirt, is what you meant to say I’m sure. > Impossible? On the contrary, Martin had at least four or five times as much time as was actually needed for him to walk home safely. He not only wasn’t home, but he was at or near the T-section. > > Zimmerman’s call alone lasted 4 minutes and 7 seconds. Bring up Google Earth and do the measurements. Even using _walking_ speed, he could have easily made it home. But he was at the T-section, eh? Oh, and Dee Dee said he was running as fast as his little legs could carry him straight home and was out of breath- So calculate running speed on top of that. I mean.. it’s a big joke. And the jury will have to recognize that. > > [Timeline of the killing of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin) I can see it taking Trayvon Martin mere seconds to get to the T, not minutes. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4316 "2012-07-21T19:32:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If everyone knows this, you might want to tell GZ…You might want to ask him why he can’t just be straight with America and just admit he got his ass out of his truck to take after the kid trying to run away from him. He has already acknowledged that he wanted to keep an eye on the lad. As in most complex series of events, he had multiple motivations to do different things at different times. I don’t expect him to be able to communicate them perfectly. > [@](#): > > Very good. But the question is not what did the witnesses say about the altercation. The question is what does Zimmerman say about it. According to him, he hit the ground immediately after he was punched at the T and stayed there until he shot Martin. The kid ended up killed sbout 50 feet south of the T. Zimmerman needs to explain how the fight traveled that distance. He may have been confused, may not remember, may not have even been able to see that well. It was night, his nose was broken and his eyes were probably watering. The fact is that it obviously _did_ move down the path some distance. He was obviously wrong about where he thinks it happened. The police are going to know where the body was, so he would have had no reason to lie about it. > [@](#): > > Are you sure Z’s cellphone was found at the T? It was my understanding that his keys and flashlight were found in that area. The flashlight was on. I could be thinking of his keys and flashlight. I just know something was found in that area of his. > [@](#): > > What else was the attacker “obviously” trying to do? At the point when Zimmerman shot Martin, the kid supposedly had been trying to smother the guy with one hand. His other arm had been pinned by Z, supposedly. Unless he was an octopus, there was little else he could have done. Zimmerman said he believed that Martin took his hand off of his mouth to reach for Zimmerman’s now-exposed gun. I can’t tell you whose arm was where, or when exactly he put his hand on his mouth, or how successful he was in doing so. Chances are Zimmerman couldn’t either. Once again though, the prosecution needs to prove that Zimmerman did whatever _they_ say he did- and not just point out inconsistencies in what Zimmerman says he did. > [@](#): > > Here’s a blog discussing the straight to back trajectory of that bullet and the problems it poses for the defense, in addition to other improbabilities in GZ’s statement. I can’t vouch for its accuracy 100%, but the arguments appear well-supported and informed. > **[The Strata-Sphere » Zimmerman’s Guilded Lies Sealed His Fate](http://www.strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/18585)** Good, because the author doesn’t vouch for its accuracy either. From the second paragraph of his theory: > [@](#): > > And this is why one needs to read things for themselves. Apparently reports claiming TM”s gunshot wound was not a contact wound (i.e., the gun was not pressed to the chest or shirt) were wrong. On page 205 of the latest document dump the forensic results indicate a contact shot. So my comments below regarding the muzzle of the gun being away from the body are inaccurate (since I based on them on inaccurate reports). Anyway, this does not help GZ. If (and now I have to question the conclusions of other reporting on the autopsy) the bullet’s trajectory is straight front to back and not at an upward angle, then GZ’s statements on when/how the gun was fired are still in doubt. Of course, if the bullet path does reflect a gun pointed upward from the waist into the chest, I will be back here eating a mighty pile of crow…. > [@](#): > > Martin is not on trial. He was under no obligation to run home in a set timeframe, and the jury can not infer wrongdoing on his part just because he didn’t succeed in running away from Zimmerman. They can infer that he “didn’t succeed in running away from Zimmerman”, because he obviously _wasn’t_ running away from Zimmerman. And, upon that inference, they will be more inclined to believe that Dee Dee’s claims aren’t credible, and to form reasonable doubt about any prosecution claim that Zimmerman chased him down, or that Martin would not have attacked Zimmerman because he was afraid of him. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4317 "2012-07-21T19:58:42Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > They can infer that he “didn’t succeed in running away from Zimmerman”, because he obviously _wasn’t_ running away from Zimmerman. And, upon that inference, they will be more inclined to believe that Dee Dee’s claims aren’t credible, and to form reasonable doubt about any prosecution claim that Zimmerman chased him down, or that Martin would not have attacked Zimmerman because he was afraid of him. Or they might infer that TM decided he couldn’t make it home before GZ rounded the corner, so he hid. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4318 "2012-07-21T20:04:09Z")
We already know this: > [@emeraldia](#): > > Captain Zimmerman: "Good evening, my name is George Zimmerman and I am a participant in the local neighborhood watch program. We’ve had several break-ins in the area and I don’t recognize you. You approached my car and then you bounded off in this direction. I was not “following” you per se, I just wanted to keep an eye on you. Now that I’ve identified myself and addressed any potential concerns on your part, might I ask, “What are you doing here?” didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4319 "2012-07-21T20:23:14Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > I know nothing about the law, but every instance I can recall when two people got into a fight and one ends up dead, there’s usually a manslaughter trial, and it’s never been for life. Considering the dead person got no injuries, beyond a bullet to the heart, which makes even the fight part dubious, why is this one different? Because the law in Florida is almost certainly different than what you’re used to. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4320 "2012-07-21T20:28:26Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Yes they must. > > But to be justified in “self defending” Trayvon doesn’t have to be beyond a reasonable doubt that he is in danger right? > > Is it reasonable to believe that somebody exiting a vehicle in the dark to follow you down a cut through wishes you ill? isn’t that all Trayvon needs to show to be allowed to defend himself from George? If Martin were alive and on trial for his battery of Zimmerman, this would be relevant. In a trial of Zimmerman, the question of whether Martin had a colorable self-defense claim is not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4321 "2012-07-21T21:30:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The barrel of the firearm was pointed directly at Martin’s heart when the shot was fired and the bullet traveled from front to back. Stippling indicates that the weapon was not held against Martins chest when it was fired. The presence of stippling also indicates that the firearm was not more than 2 feet away. Yes, all true. Additionally, the gun was fired in contact with his clothes but at an immediate distance to his skin. Now that we got these details out of the way, let’s talk about the incongruity in making this kind of shot from a supine position, with your elbow on the ground, with someone leaning over you, while pulling the gun from your hip. You are deluding yourself if you think the State will not provide one or more forsensic experts who will trash GZ’s story based on this physical evidence. > [@](#): > > During a life and death struggle, is it possible that during that struggle, Martin pinned Zimmerman’s arm to his side? Sure it might be possible. But that’s irrelevant. Zimmerman said his hands were free. > [@](#): > > Is it possible that Zimmerman managed to draw his firearm during the struggle? If his gun was holstered on his rear right hip, and Martin was planted on his stomach, and he was laying flat on his back, drawing his gun sounds like quite a feat to me. I wouldn’t say impossible, but I will say too improbable to believe without seeing such an act demonstrated. > [@](#): > > Is it possible that Zimmerman managed to point his weapon in the general direction of Martin? “General direction”? Why that, rather than refer to where the kid was actually shot in the chest? “General direction” could mean anything from Martin’s head to his feet. > [@](#): > > Was Zimmerman’s elbow in contact with the ground when the firearm was discharged? That is what he supposedly told his buddy Osterman. [The Strata-Sphere » Zimmerman’s Guilded Lies Sealed His Fate](http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/18585) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=215) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=217)