# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/421 "2012-04-22T00:46:29Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > This really amazes me. > > As for juries… If only we could peer inside their hearts… What the hell do you know about getting beaten? Have you ever, in your entire life, been in a street fight? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/422 "2012-04-22T00:49:19Z")
> [@DaHarder](#): > > …nor did I ever say that’s what **Zimmerman** ‘solely’ described. > > Rendering your (already weak) point is moot. to date, nothing Zimmerman did was inconsistent with the story so far. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/423 "2012-04-22T00:54:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have no idea how you saw Zimmerman breathing through his nose; I saw a man with a broken nose breathing through his mouth. I’ve not been able to keep up with this case much lately, is there new video that shows a broken nose? The wounds on the back of the head don’t look serious enough to warrant killing someone in my opinion. The blood amount doesn’t impress me much. Head wounds bleed a lot. Provided those new pictures are real anyway. I do have doubts about the murder charge though. I’d vote manslaughter with the little I know so far. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/424 "2012-04-22T00:54:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The thing is that the defense is also allowed a chance to present a theory of the case to the jury. Many of the arguments you urge on the finder of fact have other arguments that can be presented. So what? That applies for any murder trial. The defense can come up with all kind of theories. Doesn’t mean that their theories will be all that persuasive. > [@](#): > > For example, you say that Martin was smaller than Zimmerman. He wasn’t: he towered over the 5’8" Zimmerman by a full seven inches. Okay, take Martins size out of it then. The kid was unarmed, Zimmerman was not. To assume their respective behavior wouldn’t have reflected this disparity is far fetched. > [@](#): > > I have no idea how you saw Zimmerman breathing through his nose; I saw a man with a broken nose breathing through his mouth. Look at the video. His mouth is closed throughout most of the footage. > [@](#): > > His head had no bandages because the EMTs used cyanoacrylate, the GluStitch product they carry, to close his wounds. How likely is it that they are going to claim this, when Zimmermans lawyers had claimed early on the guy had needed stitches but didn’t get them because it was too late. You might imagine them saying something like this, but if they do, the state can easily refute it. All it takes is one EMT to say they dont use glue for dirty head wounds, and Zimmerman didn’t receive that treatment from them. So what would be the point? > [@](#): > > The jury can’t hear from the forensic experts because their technique doesn’t meet the _Frye_ standard for admissibility. And the defense has experts who will testify to the contrary anyway. Okay, but how believable will those experts likely be? > [@](#): > > The jury cannot rest a verdict on imagination. Even though the scenario you paint is possible - for this discussion I’d even go “probable” - but you can’t say that this is the only reasonable scenario, can you? The jury has to be able to rest a verdict on so etching beyond, “It probably happened this way.” Okay, so answer me this. Do you think it’s rare to score a murder conviction with the level of evidence that the state has against Zimmerman? What exactly makes this case so difficult to prove relative to other murder cases? What facts have come to light which suggests that the state has an inordinately steep uphill battle to fight? Because I dont see it at all. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/425 "2012-04-22T00:56:06Z")
I didn’t say his arrests were admissible. That’s why I didn’t factor them in. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/426 "2012-04-22T00:59:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What the hell do you know about getting beaten? Have you ever, in your entire life, been in a street fight? And this is appropos of what, exactly? (No, never been in a fight. Yes, been randomly attacked by a large - 6’3", 300 pound - crazy man with huge fists who punched me in the mouth and split my lip. Four stitches worth of fun.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/427 "2012-04-22T01:03:21Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > The wounds on the back of the head don’t look serious enough to warrant killing someone in my opinion. The blood amount doesn’t impress me much. Head wounds bleed a lot. Provided those new pictures are real anyway. The wounds on the back of his head are consistent with being struck against a hard object. In this case, the blood shows trauma to the head which is the real danger. He wasn’t in danger of bleeding to death but he was in danger of brain damage assuming his story is true. And has been so often repeated, the state has to prove his story is false. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/428 "2012-04-22T01:15:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Just to be thorough: > > 1. Guy in red on bottom, beaten up by guy on top of him, and screaming for help, yes. Really? Nah, I don’t think so. Unless you can link to the source you have for a witness claiming: [ul] [li]the guy on the bottom was beaten up at all[/li][li]beaten up BY the guy on top of him[/li][li]AND that the guy on the bottom was the one screaming for help.[/li][/ul] (And George Zimmerman is not a source.) > [@](#): > > 1. No one “saw martin screaming”. Oops! You’re right. They saw the two men, the heard the cries. But the police were kind enough to correct the witnesses who heard it, wasn’t that helpful of them too straighten people out about what they heard and saw? Gosh, it’s good to know the police are there to keep us on track. > [@](#): > > Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help. > [@](#): > > **12.** **A police officer “corrected” a key witness.** “The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.” [[ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T2ZSwREgdM4)] > [@](#): > > They might also investigate allegations of police misconduct, including a charge by one eyewitness that an officer on the scene of Martin’s shooting told her to change her story. The witness says she stated that Martin had been screaming for help before he was shot, but that the officer “corrected” her and insisted it was Zimmerman who’d called for help, [according](http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T2bGW8zBp7y) to ABC News. > [@](#): > > 1. Rumor from prosecutor. “rumor”? On what basis do you dismiss it as a rumor? > [@](#): > > 1. They claimed they saw Zimmerman standing (emphasize: standing) over the dead guy, leaning over and _ **touching his back.** _ Bear in mind that it’s the same witness (and her partner) that called the police after the shots and reported black guy standing over the dead guy. You are KILLING me with this crap. If GZ’s story is true, why not stick to the truth? > [@](#): > > She and her friend say they heard the sounds from a few steps away, where they were inside beside an open window. Seconds later, they dashed out to find a boy face down on the ground and a man standing over him, a foot on each side of the body on the ground, with his hands pinning the shooting victim down. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/429 "2012-04-22T01:19:17Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I don’t care if his nose was broken and he had a goose egg on the back of his head, because that does NOT prove that at the moment he pulled the trigger, blowing a hole in Martin’s chest, he was defending himself from Martin’s ongoing “attack”. It proves that he got hurt, and maybe it proves that Martin helped him get hurt. But since the only way that a man with a gun can sell the idea that he has to kill an unarmed man to save himself is if he is physically prevented from getting away from the attack, Zimmerman had to claim that martin was on top of him, holding him down and preventing him from getting away so he had to shoot him to stop the attack. And that’s horseshit, from all the evidence we have available. Pure, unadulterated horseshit. Almost nothing supports Gz’s (purported!) version of what happened, and I have no doubt at all that his statements to police were very contradictory. He had to think on his feet to come up with a good enough story to get away with killing Martin, and I’m sure he fucked it up plenty. You’ve done generally a better job of keeping a more nuanced/dispassionate view of this than most of your compatriots but you really go off the rails here. A few things: 1. No, Zimmerman does not have to claim Martin was on top of him and holding him down to justify his shooting legally. Legal self defense shootings do not require the shooter to be physically touched by the other person, even in non-SYG states. 2. I have no idea how you can have **no doubt at all** about Zimmerman’s statements to the police. That’s like me showing you a black box and telling you I have a baseball card in the box, and you saying you have **no doubt at all** it is a Babe Ruth card, that’s the height of ridiculousness. You’re asserting you have **no doubt at all** about something you cannot know, which means you position of no doubt is not based on facts. 3. I agree with you Zimmerman’s injuries do not prove much of anything on their own, I think **ywtf** has been overly focused on them. I think it very likely though, that since we’ve now heard Zimmerman’s attorney discuss a broken nose in court there is a high likelihood of un-ambiguous medical records showing a broken nose. However, I’ve **never** felt the issue of the injuries was important. Early on, we had no idea what Zimmerman’s claims were about his injuries, we had just heard second hand information from his father. At that point, the only important issue with the injuries was some people felt the police said that Zimmerman had “injuries consistent with his story” when he was not injured at all (based on a grainy video in a police station.) The only way I could see the injuries being important, is if Zimmerman had no injuries whatsoever–because that would cast severe doubt on his story _as we know it_. Since I don’t believe very many rational people will say there were no injuries at all at this point, I think most people should recognize severity of the injuries is essentially irrelevant. Zimmerman’s justification or lack thereof is not based on how injured he was but whether or not he had a reasonable **fear** for his life or health and safety; legally Zimmerman could have shot Trayvon without a scratch on him and been legally justified. Zimmerman also could have shot Trayvon and himself suffered immense wounds and been legally unjustified. The wounds themselves are demonstrative of anything in the inherent legality of the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/430 "2012-04-22T01:23:56Z")
> [@DaHarder](#): > > Now you’re just being ridiculous, as any reasonable individual knows full-well that ‘_late teens_’ would be from 17-19 years of age, and ‘around’ the age of 28 ( **Zimmerman** ’s actual age, not the one you made up) is far beyond that age-group. You would never be able to sustain a perjury conviction against someone based on them saying one night on a phone call (right before a traumatic incident) that they saw someone “who appeared in their late teens” and who then later said they thought the person was “only a few years younger than myself.” Further, it’s plausible that when Zimmerman spoke with the 911 dispatcher, seeing Trayvon from a distance, he thought he was late teens. It’s possible when he pulled the trigger (after potentially getting his ass whipped) he thought Trayvon was older, perhaps early 20s to early-mid 20s (24/25.) I know that just by talking about a plausible explanation I will be considered acting in Zimmerman’s defense, but I’ll go through the fruitless exercise of saying: I’m not. Zimmerman obviously probably practiced at least parts of his apology before hand to some degree so he may have added things in to try and make his actions seem more sympathetic and may have intentionally fudged things a little bit. But the discrepancy is not significant enough to be able to say, prosecute Zimmerman for lying under oath. And since a jury isn’t empaneled yet (to my knowledge), the statements won’t really matter when it comes to the trial at large. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/431 "2012-04-22T01:24:54Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And this is appropos of what, exactly? > > (No, never been in a fight. Yes, been randomly attacked by a large - 6’3", 300 pound - crazy man with huge fists who punched me in the mouth and split my lip. Four stitches worth of fun.) I ask you because you said you were amazed when Bricker said there is sufficient evidence of self-defense to meet the defense’s burden. Maybe I misunderstood your meaning but it appears to me that you don’t understand what it’s like to get your head slammed into a solid object. Getting punched in the face hurts. It’s nothing compared to getting your head slammed into concrete. That’s a serious, life threatening event. So far… SO FAR… Zimmerman’s story is consistent. The major part of this case is whether or not his life was threatened. The rest of the story is window dressing leading up to the event. It would be nice if there was a video of Zimmerman starting the fight. It would conflict with his story. However, it’s more LOGICAL that he maintained sight of Martin knowing the police were minutes away and continued to pursue him. It’s more LOGICAL that Martin was insulted by Zimmerman’s challenge when the 2 met up and started a fight. In the absence of this information we’re left with: Zimmerman’s account, physical evidence, and eye witnesses. Right now now, all that lines up with his story. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/432 "2012-04-22T01:29:04Z")
One reason the injuries could be significant in a trial is to cast doubt on any claim by the prosecution that Zimmerman was in no danger. Another reason is that if it can be shown that Zimmerman was injured and Martin not it will cast doubt on the idea that Zimmerman started the confrontation. Conversely, if there are no injuries to Zimmerman, it may impair his credibility as a witness. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/433 "2012-04-22T01:32:40Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Really? Nah, I don’t think so. Unless you can link to the source you have for a witness claiming: > > [ul] > [li]the guy on the bottom was beaten up at all[/li][li]beaten up BY the guy on top of him[/li][li]AND that the guy on the bottom was the one screaming for help.[/li][/ul] > (And George Zimmerman is not a source.) This information has only been posted a hundred times: > **[FOX 35 Orlando | Local News, Weather, and Live Streams | WOFL](https://www.fox35orlando.com/)** > > Central Florida area news, weather, radar, sports, traffic, live newscasts, and more. From WOFL-TV FOX 35 News in Orlando, your weather authority. “The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. “And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.” > [@](#): > > Oops! You’re right. They saw the two men, the heard the cries. But the police were kind enough to correct the witnesses who heard it, wasn’t that helpful of them too straighten people out about what they heard and saw? Gosh, it’s good to know the police are there to keep us on track. Not one person saw Martin screaming for help. Some heard screams for help and claim it was Martin, without ever hearing Martin before the incident. > [@](#): > > “rumor”? On what basis do you dismiss it as a rumor? Link to the evidence. > [@](#): > > You are KILLING me with this crap. If GZ’s story is true, why not stick to the truth? Sticking to the truth: She and her friend say they heard the sounds from a few steps away, where they were inside beside an open window. Seconds later, they dashed out to find a boy face down on the ground **and a man standing over him** , a foot on each side of the body on the ground, with his hands pinning the shooting victim down. Do you want me to link to you the article that says this witness called the police to report a black man standing over a dead man? And if I do, will that convince you as to the reliability (well, lack of such) of this witness? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/434 "2012-04-22T01:33:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The wounds on the back of his head are consistent with being struck against a hard object. What hard object? ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/435 "2012-04-22T01:34:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …You can’t say he prejudged Martin as a bad person, merely because he considered he was acting suspiciously… Yes we can, and we need only his own words (“These assholes always get away”) to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/436 "2012-04-22T01:35:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > We can’t take Zimmerman’s statement off the table, as it’s the single most important piece of evidence in this case Really? The guy who is going on trial for second degree murder is the guy we can trust to give us the straight story? For god’s sake… > [@](#): > > You can’t say he prejudged Martin as a bad person, merely because he considered he was acting suspiciously. No, we can say it because he referred to “thse assholes”, meaning martin as a member of the “assholes” - do you think he thought Martin was a great guy and asshole was an endearment? > [@](#): > > It’s a _good thing_ to call the police if one sees someone acting suspiciously! And what was suspicious abotu Martin again? I mean, aside from being a black male in a hoodie, which I understand is inherently suspicious. > [@](#): > > There’s no reason to assume he intended to restrain Martin, No, of course not, if you pretend you never heard the 911 call. > [@](#): > > Martin was 6 inches taller than Zimmerman, and an athlete compared to a couch potato. A string bean kid compared to a former fat guy who worked out and got himself in good shape because he wanted to be a hero-cop. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman was there because he wanted to make sure he knew where Martin was when the police arrived. If Martin had gone straight to the place he was staying (not his home) he would not have encountered Zimmerman, based on the times of Zimmerman’s 911 call and Martin’s call to his girlfriend. So Martin’s at fault for not running home immediately, thereby giving Zimmerman the opportunity to be the asshole playing hero? > [@](#): > > he had every right to do so. I’m getting really sick of people saying that Zimmerman “had every right” to follow and question Martin as though it is identical in meaning to saying that Zimmerman was not prohibited from doing it. Not really the same thing. And if you doubt it, let’s have you followed and questioned randomly and see if you want to characterize the people doing it as “having every right” to do it. People also have a right to be unmolested when they are innocent of wrongdoing, what about that right? > [@](#): > > As you say, the witness reports conflict. One of Zimmerman’s relatives, I think his father, says it was Zimmerman screaming. Other voice experts have claimed that the tests used aren’t conclusive. In short, doubt all round. Not really. Zimmerman’s dad saying it was zimmerman means nothing. Zimmerman saying it was zimmerman means nothing. But if you think there’s a genuine possibility that it really was Zimmerman, I urge you to take a crack at the prosecution questioning Zimmerman as I did above, show us how Zimmerman answers those questions, how the idea of him screaming for help when he had a gun in his hand makes sense. Please. And FTR: pretty much everyone who was there and heard it in person, along with experts and everyone else, does not find it remotely credible that the voice in the background is Zimmerman’s. It does not in any rational way square with his version of events, and it does not in any way sound like a 28 year old man, and it for sure doesn’t sound like a 28 year old man holding a gun and getting ready to shoot this boy. What it absolutely DOES sound like is a deeply terrified young man. Like a young man looking at a gun, maybe holding the arm that’s holding the gun, trying to keep it from being aimed at him because he doesn’t want to die. How anyone could listen to that sound and not be heartsick is beyond my ability to understand. > [@](#): > > But even if we do, I’ve been able to cast significant doubt on every single claim you’ve made against Zimmerman. Reasonable doubt equals no conviction. Not. > [@Magiver](#): > > to date, nothing Zimmerman did was inconsistent with the story so far. What does this mean? ---
**Author:** ![DaHarder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@DaHarder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaHarder)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/437 "2012-04-22T01:35:45Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If we take Zimmerman’s statement off the table and simply look at the picture communicated by both the circumstantial and physical evidence, I don’t see how one can assume Zimmerman shot Martin for self defense. > > The 911 call tells us 3 things: Zimmerman had prejudged the kid as a bad person (state of mind), he actively pursued this supposedly bad person against 911 advice (poor judgement, impulsiveness, and lack of respect for authority), and he really really didn’t want Martin to get away (intent to restrain or stalk him). > > Martin was unarmed and smaller than Zimmerman. We have no evidence of any agenda on Martin’s part to start shit with Zimmerman. His apparent mission had been to get snacks and talk to his girlfriend. > > Zimmerman had a gun and an agenda. His apparent mission was to keep Martin the Asshole from getting away. > > Martin ends up being killed by Zimmermans gun. The location suggests he was on his way home. There is no decent explanation for why Zimmerman was back there though. His truck was parked some distance away on the street. This suggests he got out of his car to go after Martin. > > Zimmerman possibly has injuries but none that leave him so incapacitated by pain or discomfort that he needed emergency care before enduring a 5 hour stay at the PD. He is seen breathing out of his nose on a surveillance video and his head is in without bandageds. > > Witnesses report some conflicting things. But there’s some audio of someone yelling desperately for help, that abruptly ends when the gunshot goes off. Multiple witnesses say it was a boy who was yelling. Martins mother says it was her son. Two forensic voice experts rule out Zimmerman. > > Question: how does any of this paint a picture of self-defense? It seems to me we have more compelling evidence against Zimmerman than we do for most murder cases. The only difference is that it’s undisputable that Zimmerman killed Martin. If we ignore his claim of self-defense and just connect the dots, it takes little imagination to paint of picture of an impulsive, stupid man with a need to feel important and heroic, who jumps to conclusions about Martin, assumes an authority that he doesn’t have by going after him, corners the boy and incites a struggle that causes him to panic and pull out of his gun, the boy screams for help at that point, and Zimmerman shoots him to restore control to his world. The end. Well Done… and if there’s any justice this world, this is exactly the criteria on which **Zimmerman** will be judged. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/438 "2012-04-22T01:41:54Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What hard object? well from all the accounts that would be the sidewalk that runs between the houses. That squares with the witness who said he locked his screen door which would be at the back of the house (condo’s really) and the witness who said she saw people run by. They’re connected condo’s with a common sidewalk in the back. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/439 "2012-04-22T01:43:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > well from all the accounts that would be the sidewalk that runs between the houses. That squares with the witness who said he locked his screen door which would be at the back of the house (condo’s really). There is an eyewitness that said the struggle took place entirely on the grass, well away from the sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/440 "2012-04-22T01:47:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > There is an eyewitness that said the struggle took place entirely on the grass, well away from the sidewalk. His head wound suggests otherwise. That’s physical evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=23)