# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 221
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4402 "2012-07-23T03:05:26Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The only link I’ve seen is to the same Orlando Sentinel I posted which says 80 seconds. That’s you’re own fault then. You posted the OS article in post # 4296. The link was provided in a response to your post in post #4298. If you didn’t see it, it’s on you. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Are you being obtuse on purpose? > Zimmerman’s call connected at 7:09:34 ([cite](http://i.imgur.com/G9zy5.jpg)), and lasted for approx. four minutes. here it is again [![](https://i.imgur.com/G9zy5.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/G9zy5.jpg) This has been out for months. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4403 "2012-07-23T07:08:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I am unaware of what evidence the prosecution is availed of, as are you. However, the fact remains that as far as we know, > > 1. It is solely Zimmerman’s account. We have no corroborating evidence it is true, and > > 2. It indisputably IS contradicted, at least to some extent, by where the shooting took place, which is beyond where Zimmerman (according to you) claims he went. If he only went east, and then attempted to walk back to his car, how did they end up south, further down the path? > > Is that proof beyond a reasonable doubt Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder? I would say not. But his claim is simply not established fact, and you are presenting it as if it is. It is not established fact, but there is evidence that the incident began at the T because that’s where his keys were. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4404 "2012-07-23T08:22:40Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > It is not established fact, but there is evidence that the incident began at the T because that’s where his keys were. Yep, and there’s evidence that the incident ended 40 feet to the south, because that’s where Martin’s body ended up. George doesn’t do a very good job of getting us from point A to point B, however. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4405 "2012-07-23T14:04:16Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Yep, and there’s evidence that the incident ended 40 feet to the south, because that’s where Martin’s body ended up. > > George doesn’t do a very good job of getting us from point A to point B, however. No, but that’s apparently what happened. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4406 "2012-07-23T14:14:46Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > No, but that’s apparently what happened. And you don’t find it odd that George can’t construct a reasonable story as to how it happened? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4407 "2012-07-23T14:15:48Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > It is not established fact, but there is evidence that the incident began at the T because that’s where his keys were. Why would the location of the keys indicate the location of the initial incident? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4408 "2012-07-23T14:17:39Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > It is not established fact, but there is evidence that the incident began at the T because that’s where his keys were. That doesn’t really match Zimmerman’s version of events of where Martin’s dead body ended up. It seems to me the location of the dead person is vastly more important than the location of someone’s keys; the keys could have been dropped at any time, whereas Martin was dropped only once. If in fact Zimmerman was ambushed there, as he (and you) have claimed, and was knocked to the ground and “relentlessly” beaten, how did Martin’s body end up so much further south? Did this relentless beating somehow inolved Zimmerman scooting himself forty feet south while lying on his back? That’s a trick. Since this is the “humble opinions and speculation thread,” not the “state as proven facts things that are not proven facts” thread, allow me to **humbly speculate** ; a likelier version of events, to my mind, which would explain why Martin ended up dead south of the T-intersection, is that Zimmerman is lying; that, in fact, he went south from the T after Martin. Again, that is my speculation, but it does match the facts as we have them; it’s a much better explanation than Zimmerman never going south. I don’t know how Martin ends up where he does if he attacks Zimmerman at, or west of, the T-intersection, and promptly knocks Zimmerman down and pummels him. He wasn’t shot by a cannon. I’m not making an especially wild or crazy speculation there, either. It’s really the most logical explanation. It’s what gets Zimmerman and Martin to where it appears the altercation actually took place, and it’s consistent with what appeared to be his state of mind. Now, whether or not the prosecution has some evidence to support my speculation I do not know. Angela Corey’s career is probably riding on it. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4409 "2012-07-23T14:28:44Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > No, but that’s apparently what happened. If you get punched in the nose, and dazed, covering forty feet isn’t difficult. That’s not far, and Zimmerman must have been trying to shimmy from under Trayvon. It seems more like making mountains out of molehills. IMO ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4410 "2012-07-23T14:52:28Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > If you get punched in the nose, and dazed, covering forty feet isn’t difficult. That’s not far, and Zimmerman must have been trying to shimmy from under Trayvon. It seems more like making mountains out of molehills. IMO If you get punched in the nose from a south-easternly direction, maybe stumbling forty feet -back- to the west/north-west might not be that difficult. Getting punched in the nose and stumbling -forward- to the south is odd, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4411 "2012-07-23T15:14:05Z")
I don’t think people really appreciate that 50 feet is a sizable distance. It’s not the kind of distance someone would be expected gloss over in a story recounted from memory. Zimmerman claimed that immediately after he was punched, he fell to the ground and stayed there until he fired on Martin. He repeated this claim multiple times when he was interviewed the night of the shooting. Even in his reenactment, when it’s clear he realized his gaffe and added the “stumbling along, pushed along” detail to account for some distance, he’ still ended up placing the site of the shooting at least 30 or 40 feet away from where Martin’s dead body was found. LOL at the notion that Zimmerman able to “shimmy” this length of distance while having a teenager pound his head in the concrete at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4412 "2012-07-23T16:34:10Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why would the location of the keys indicate the location of the initial incident? It is also consistent with the statements of W11 and W6. W6 was quite clear that the fight started far away and moved closer to him. The fact that the flashlight on the key chain was still on when the police got there is also indicating that Zimmerman was using the flashlight when he dropped it. In this case the physical evidence and the witness statements reinforce each other. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4413 "2012-07-23T16:38:17Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It is also consistent with the statements of W11 and W6. W6 was quite clear that the fight started far away and moved closer to him. The fact that the flashlight on the key chain was still on when the police got there is also indicating that Zimmerman was using the flashlight when he dropped it. In this case the physical evidence and the witness statements reinforce each other. Yes. And both the physical evidence and the witness statements contradict George’s statements. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4414 "2012-07-23T16:44:46Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > If you get punched in the nose, and dazed, covering forty feet isn’t difficult. That’s not far, and Zimmerman must have been trying to shimmy from under Trayvon. It seems more like making mountains out of molehills. IMO Lay down on your floor and try to shimmy forty feet. See what kind of effort and speed that entails even without someone straddling you and holding you down. Walking forty feet is easy. Stumbling forty feet? Possible, I suppose. Shimmying forty feet? Not happening unless you are a snake. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4415 "2012-07-23T16:46:04Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > LOL. > _You_ take it up with the evidence we have at hand. > **This is Singleton’s notes versus the SCSO’s time stamps, not internet posters vs the prosecution.** > > Examine the timeline in the actual documents–it’s not the prosecutor’s official timeline as the news article makes it out to be. > It’s from a document prepared by Singleton in the SPD. > > It’s not the prosecution’s timeline–it’s something prepared by Singleton. It’s one document among the many. > > If you feel the need to go with this secondary document instead of the one from which it was derived, that’s your business. > But there’s no indication that the prosecution is going to use that timeline from Singleton instead of the one recorded by the SCSO’s computers. > At least there’s no indication of that being the case that I know of. > > If you have some reason to believe that the prosecution is going to use Singleton’s document to establish a timeline instead of the SCSO’s event logs, please feel free to share. > > **This is Singleton’s notes versus the SCSO’s time stamps, not internet posters vs the prosecution.** The timeline was published nearly three months after the incident and I haven’t seen any article cited where the prosecution corrected it. The prosecution owns it now. You guys are arguing that some numbers in the reports are gospel and some are crap because 80 seconds makes it very hard to prove 2nd degree. Does anybody actually have a cite from a newspaper that the timeline published in the Sentinel is wrong ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4416 "2012-07-23T16:50:55Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The timeline was published nearly three months after the incident and I haven’t seen any article cited where the prosecution corrected it. The prosecution owns it now. You guys are arguing that some numbers in the reports are gospel and some are crap because 80 seconds makes it very hard to prove 2nd degree. > > Does anybody actually have a cite from a newspaper that the timeline published in the Sentinel is wrong Why the F\*\*\* do we need a cite from a _newspaper_ that a timeline in another newspaper is wrong? Once more - and I’ll type slow so you understand - WE. HAVE. THE. ORIGINAL. DOCUMENT. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4417 "2012-07-23T16:53:09Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The timeline was published nearly three months after the incident and I haven’t seen any article cited where the prosecution corrected it. So what? Is there some reason to think that the prosecution has to issue press releases about every detail included in the document dump? It’s just one document among many. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The prosecution owns it now. I don’t think there’s any real content to this statement. It’s still a document created by Singleton. the prosecution has not endorsed it. They have released it. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You guys are arguing that some numbers in the reports are gospel and some are crap because 80 seconds makes it very hard to prove 2nd degree. Your assessment of my motivations is faulty fyi. So don’t infer very much from your assessment. The actual argument is that the system set up to accurately record time stamps on the event logs is more reliable than the notes taken from the records created by that system. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Does anybody actually have a cite from a newspaper that the timeline published in the Sentinel is wrong Just a quick question here. How is a report about a report about the event log more authoritative than the actual event log? Why are you trying to find a document which is even further removed? I don’t get it. Why not just examine the primary document? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4418 "2012-07-23T17:02:37Z")
[QUOTE=JoelUpchurch;15303130] The fact that the flashlight on the key chain was still on when the police got there is also indicating that Zimmerman was using the flashlight when he dropped it. [/QUOTE] Which is a fact that might end up further negating his already tenuous credibility. IIRC, Zimmerman told the cops that the reason he didn’t immediately return to his truck after ending the call with nonemergency is because his flashlight wasn’t working and he was afraid of walking in the dark. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4419 "2012-07-23T17:13:21Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Which is a fact that might end up further negating his already tenuous credibility. > > IIRC, Zimmerman told the cops that the reason he didn’t immediately return to his truck after ending the call with nonemergency is because his flashlight wasn’t working and he was afraid of walking in the dark. Oh it’s worse than that - remember he first says that he didn’t walk back because ‘he didn’t want to walk back in the dark’ (so I guess George just planned on wandering around until the morning?). So he’s admitted that he didn’t go back to his truck right away. His story now is that he was walking right back to his truck when he was ambushed by Martin the uber-criminal who successfully sneaked up behind his prey and…said something to him, giving George enought time to turn around and reach for his phone. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4420 "2012-07-23T17:22:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Which is a fact that might end up further negating his already tenuous credibility. > > IIRC, Zimmerman told the cops that the reason he didn’t immediately return to his truck after ending the call with nonemergency is because his flashlight wasn’t working and he was afraid of walking in the dark. You really need to look at the evidence. Zimmerman had **two** flashlights, which were both found at the scene. The larger flashlight wasn’t working, so Zimmerman used the one on his keychain. I find it hard to believe that you are not aware of this. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4421 "2012-07-23T17:27:10Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You really need to look at the evidence. Zimmerman had **two** flashlights, which were both found at the scene. The larger flashlight wasn’t working, so Zimmerman used the one on his keychain. I find it hard to believe that you are not aware of this. Are you being obtuse on purpose? Do you suffer from some horrible reading disorder? We’re aware of the fact that the flashlight on his keychain was working. Which is why we’re calling BS on his claim that he didn’t want to ‘walk back to his truck in the dark’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=220) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=222)