# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 224
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4462 "2012-07-24T19:01:19Z")
In order to prove Zimmerman committed murder (or manslaughter), one has to prove he did not fire in self-defense. In order to prove he did not fire in self-defense, one has to prove that it was Trayvon Martin screaming for help and not Zimmerman. Which, of course, is why team Crump pushed the “scared, innocent, wide-eyed little boy running his little legs off trying to escape” from the “aggressive racist chasing him down intent on executing this “coon” like a rabid dog.” Then we found out Martin was not a _little boy_. We found out he was not _wide-eyed and innocent_. Then came Zimmerman’s injuries- and Martin’s lack there of. The evidence- from the prosecution- has shown that Zimmerman (despite a push and a retaliatory slap) is not particularly aggressive. In fact, he has overwhelmingly been described as a calm, even-keel guy. Even the person he slapped said he would be the last person she thought would ever be involved in something like this. That’s the _worst_ the prosecution has found- and it was surrounded by a mountain of positive statements otherwise. The evidence- from the prosecution- has shown that Zimmerman (despite off-hand comments expressing annoyance at Mexicans) is anything but a racist. Even the single person they did find- who made exaggerated claims about Zimmerman and his entire family- could not mention a single racist thing he had ever done or said. Of course, this extremely weak evidence that he’s a racist is surrounded by a mountain of evidence that he was not. Other than _parts_ of Dee Dee’s testimony, there is no evidence that indicates he was _scared_ of Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman was “stalking” him. _Other_ parts of Dee Dee’s testimony indicate that he was not scared- and the timeline and location of events also demonstrate he was not fleeing. Not to mention at least one witness that showed him on top of Zimmerman. In short, team Crump’s original narrative has, by and large, fallen apart. (though there are still thousands if not millions of people who still believe every last word of it.) I think it’s funny that people point their fingers at Zimmerman’s lack of credibility, rightly so to a degree, and in a sense, due to the bond hearing. Yet, it is Zimmerman’s persecutors that have taken, by far, the biggest hits to their credibility. _Their_ narrative of what happened was an enormous pile of fecal matter- filled to the brim with lies and distortions- and it has only been revised when it absolutely has had to be. So you can point to Zimmerman and say that he hasn’t been forthright with the truth, is hiding something, or has diminished credibility. But when it comes to his account of events that night, his account of events has held up much better- and to a much higher level of scrutiny than his persecutor’s (who have had to answer to no one for their dishonesty). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4463 "2012-07-24T19:13:29Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > In order to prove Zimmerman committed murder (or manslaughter), one has to prove he did not fire in self-defense. This is false. The state only has to prove his fear was not reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4464 "2012-07-24T19:19:05Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > The stakes get higher. This is the message board equivalent of a duel. Will he accept? I accept - loser to make a $100 donation to the charity of their choice. Can we have an independent third party to act as arbitrator and verify the donation? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4465 "2012-07-24T19:46:58Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I accept - loser to make a $100 donation to the charity of their choice. Can we have an independent third party to act as arbitrator and verify the donation? **Take my original bet. Are the stakes too high for you?** I > [@](#): > > **If you are so confident. Why don’t we bet on it?The loser will no longer post in this thread.** > > The records you say are gospel said the call disconnected 19:13:27. The records I use say 19:15:23. If you split the difference then the time is 19:14:25. > > When Zimmerman’s cell phone records are published, if the call was disconnected before 19:14:25, then you win. If it is after 19:14:25 I win. If they only publish the time to the minute, then you win 19:13 and I win 19:15 and 19:14 is a push. ---
**Author:** ![Zyanthia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Zyanthia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyanthia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4466 "2012-07-24T19:57:21Z")
Disclaimer: I think the state does have enough evidence to show manslaughter, not sure about murder, but trying to keep an open mind. Now with that said, I do have a question. Why do they keep referring to Trayvon as a child and posting an out-of-date picture? This has been irritating me from the beginning and makes it very hard to keep an open mind. Are they afraid to let the world know what Trayvon really looked like? Are they afraid to let the world know he was a young adult, not a child? The answer won’t change what I think of Zimmerman’s actions, but I am angry at the Martin’s deceit as well, and really would like to understand why they chose to do it that way. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4467 "2012-07-24T20:17:55Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > In order to prove Zimmerman committed murder (or manslaughter), one has to prove he did not fire in self-defense. In order to prove he did not fire in self-defense, one has to prove that it was Trayvon Martin screaming for help and not Zimmerman. > Which, of course, is why team Crump pushed the “scared, innocent, wide-eyed little boy running his little legs off trying to escape” from the “aggressive racist chasing him down intent on executing this “coon” like a rabid dog.” > > Then we found out Martin was not a _little boy_. We found out he was not _wide-eyed and innocent_. Then came Zimmerman’s injuries- and Martin’s lack there of. > > The evidence- from the prosecution- has shown that Zimmerman (despite a push and a retaliatory slap) is not particularly aggressive. In fact, he has overwhelmingly been described as a calm, even-keel guy. Even the person he slapped said he would be the last person she thought would ever be involved in something like this. That’s the _worst_ the prosecution has found- and it was surrounded by a mountain of positive statements otherwise. > > The evidence- from the prosecution- has shown that Zimmerman (despite off-hand comments expressing annoyance at Mexicans) is anything but a racist. Even the single person they did find- who made exaggerated claims about Zimmerman and his entire family- could not mention a single racist thing he had ever done or said. Of course, this extremely weak evidence that he’s a racist is surrounded by a mountain of evidence that he was not. > > Other than _parts_ of Dee Dee’s testimony, there is no evidence that indicates he was _scared_ of Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman was “stalking” him. _Other_ parts of Dee Dee’s testimony indicate that he was not scared- and the timeline and location of events also demonstrate he was not fleeing. Not to mention at least one witness that showed him on top of Zimmerman. > > In short, team Crump’s original narrative has, by and large, fallen apart. (though there are still thousands if not millions of people who still believe every last word of it.) > I think it’s funny that people point their fingers at Zimmerman’s lack of credibility, rightly so to a degree, and in a sense, due to the bond hearing. Yet, it is Zimmerman’s persecutors that have taken, by far, the biggest hits to their credibility. _Their_ narrative of what happened was an enormous pile of fecal matter- filled to the brim with lies and distortions- and it has only been revised when it absolutely has had to be. > > So you can point to Zimmerman and say that he hasn’t been forthright with the truth, is hiding something, or has diminished credibility. But when it comes to his account of events that night, his account of events has held up much better- and to a much higher level of scrutiny than his persecutor’s (who have had to answer to no one for their dishonesty). Having looked at the DNA results in the evidence dump, George Zimmerman has a one in 11 Quadrillion nonrelated chance of matching anyone of Caucasian ancestry. Amazing. Doubt he’s a white racist. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4468 "2012-07-24T20:22:01Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Doubt he’s a white racist. Which in no way rules out racial bigotry on his part. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4469 "2012-07-24T20:34:12Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because the SPD has already **admitted** that the system is wrong. Could you please be so kind as to provide a link to where they say this? > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Orlando Sentinel May 21st > Actually they are saying the time reported byThe Seminole County Sheriff’s Office is wrong. > I suspect that correcting the time using phone company records is fairly routine in cases where exact time is needed. Could you provide a link to where the Orlando Sentinel says that the SCSO is wrong? I’d really like to have that for my own use. I don’t feel comfortable telling people that the SCSO is wrong about this when I don’t have anything to back it up. So hook me up, please. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4470 "2012-07-24T20:49:49Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > He didn’t talk about his keys and flashlight. They didn’t play an important role in the event. I don’t recall him being asked specifically about his flashlight either by the police. Yes he was asked about it. And I just realized Zimmerman does say he was carrying the broken flashlight in his hands. From the Chris Serino interview on 2/29: > [@](#): > > CS: Yeah, I mean it’s, um, like I say you’re not in custody, you’re not on probation, I have no [can’t understand] with your doing anything. I’m doing a fair and impartial investigation here. And, um, I have some inconsistencies that don’t amount to much, but, um, I mean, I guess, you know, well hopefully by the time we’re done here today we’ll have enough to go ahead and, you know, not have folks looking at me like I’m crazy for not arresting you. **At the time of the encounter with him, was there anything in your hand?** > GZ: **I think my flashlight.** > CS: Okay. The flashlight. Was it working or was it not working? > GZ: **It was dead.** > CS: It was dead. Okay. It was not clicking on. It was in your right hand or left hand? > GZ: [can’t understand] > CS: Okay. And you looked away from him is that what happened? When you got punched, or did you see the punch coming? > [@](#): > > Once again though.. how would it benefit Zimmerman to intentionally omit what happened with his flashlight? Well for one thing, if he claimed he was completely overtaken by Martin, and yet he was holding on to his inoperative flashlight for almost the entire time during the fight, that undercuts his claim that he was helpless. Because then we’re supposed to believe that in the middle of this life and death struggle, rather than giving himself two free hands to use as defense against Martin, he keeps a death grip on a broken flashlight for absolutely no reason at all. I mean, he didn’t even say he used the flashlight as a weapon. He could’ve banged it against Martin in self defense rather than pulling out his gun. For another thing, if he was holding a working flashlight, that gives him one more advantage over Martin–who not only was unarmed, in a lighter weight class, and in an unfamiliar place, but also probably couldn’t see a whole lot due to darkness. And yet we’re supposed to believe he provoked a fight with Zimmerman. Right. But the greater issue is that him omitting this detail is more evidence that Zimmerman concocted a story out of whole cloth. When you’re basing a story, not from memory, but from your imagination, the risk of “plot holes” increases. Especially when you’re an impulsive, idiotic person. > [@](#): > > In fact, it would have been better for him to mention- yeah, I had my keys in one hand and when he hit me I dropped my keys with the flashlight on it right by the T, since it supports the notion he was at the “T” (and perhaps the police lost track of where his keys actually were in the crime scene.) No it wouldn’t, because then he wouldn’t be able to claim he was surrounded by darkness. Not only does it undermine the plausibility of Martin surprising him (rather than the other way around), it also means he needs to come up with some other excuse for not immediately returning to his truck. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4471 "2012-07-24T20:55:23Z")
> [@Zyanthia](#): > > Now with that said, I do have a question. Why do they keep referring to Trayvon as a child and posting an out-of-date picture? They were probably using whatever picture the family gave them, and I expect it to be unlikely that the family had a lot of pictures of Martin in his “No Limit Nigga” persona. And technically he was still a minor. > [@](#): > > Are they afraid to let the world know what Trayvon really looked like? Are they afraid to let the world know he was a young adult, not a child? > > The answer won’t change what I think of Zimmerman’s actions, but I am angry at the Martin’s deceit as well, and really would like to understand why they chose to do it that way. It makes a better story if Martin is the innocent kid gunned down by a dangerous, unstable racist. Given the choice of two story lines - [list=A][li]Innocent, cherubic young Trayvon Martin was skipping merrily home, Skittles in his pocket and a song in his heart. Suddenly he is attacked by Evil White Racists, and his promising young life is snuffed out. Or[/li][li]Trouble-making young gangsta wannabe is sent to live with his father, because he has been suspended for the third time from school. He hasn’t been there long before he gets into trouble for attacking a neighbor. Unfortunately, this particular neighbor is armed, and shoots him for his pains. [/list]They’re generally going to go for A. Because that is more outrageous, and outrage gets people to pay attention so you can advertise to them. [/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4472 "2012-07-24T20:58:28Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Could you please be so kind as to provide a link to where they say this? > Could you provide a link to where the Orlando Sentinel says that the SCSO is wrong? > I’d really like to have that for my own use. > I don’t feel comfortable telling people that the SCSO is wrong about this when I don’t have anything to back it up. > > So hook me up, please. [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521\_1\_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino) Since we have been arguing about what the asterisk means in the article. I’m surprised you don’t recognize it. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4473 "2012-07-24T21:39:48Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > **Take my original bet. Are the stakes too high for you?** > I I’m not letting you off that easy. Letting you just slink away tail beneath your legs? No way. So - do we have a bet or not? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4474 "2012-07-24T22:10:40Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Since we have been arguing about what the asterisk means in the article. I’m surprised you don’t recognize it. The asterisk mean that there is additional information contained in a note. I don’t recall debating that. I also don’t see where the police “stated that some of the times in the event log are **wrong**.” So that kind of threw me. Based on your posts I expected to see an article with the police stating that some of the times in the event log are **wrong**. When I didn’t see that in the article, I didn’t see any reason to think it was the article to which you referred. **So the police didn’t actually make any such statement at all.** You’re just making an assertion that the police reached that conclusion even though you don’t actually have a record of the police reaching that conclusion. AFAICT, anyway. Alright then, I’ll give up hope of finding the SPD statement “that some of the times in the event log are **wrong** ” for now. \*\*If you find one for real, though, please PM me with it. \*\* I’d rather have my timeline straight than not. So if you come across info that can clarify the discrepancy, please share. In the past months, I have already written to Stutzman and other reporters following the case about the timeline discrepancy. I have been examining the issue for a bit. Not too much info out there about it. So, I honestly would appreciate it if you would share any info that you happen to find about the discrepancy. Thanks, ~PX ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4475 "2012-07-24T22:10:46Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > He isn’t accurate in where he has the final event occurring. Again, understandable- and beyond that, absolutely no reason to lie about where it ended up since this was indisputable fact known to > the police. Absolutely no reason? His narrative was that he walked across the cut-thru to find an address, and then was walking back to his truck. Going south down the walkway would contradict that narrative and would imply that he went out of his way looking for/pursuing TM. When he was constructing his narrative, he would have been looking to stress how he did not approach TM, but TM approached and attacked him as he was just minding his own business innocently walking back to his truck. He apparently wasn’t thinking ahead enough to realize that the position of the body and the shell-casing would contradict that farcical narrative. Tangled web, weave, deceive, and all that. It’s not easy to tell numerous lies and prevent them all from contradicting something else. There are so many blatant examples of that in his narrative, that it requires a willful suspension of disbelief to think that he isn’t being intentionally dishonest - slight lapses of memory can’t explain such numerous and glaring inconsistencies. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4476 "2012-07-24T22:47:58Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I’m not letting you off that easy. Letting you just slink away tail beneath your legs? No way. > > So - do we have a bet or not? I’m unemployed. I can’t bet cash. Accept my original bet or admit you don’t really believe what you are posting. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4477 "2012-07-24T23:52:33Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > \*\*If you find one for real, though, please PM me with it. \*\* > > I’d rather have my timeline straight than not. So if you come across info that can clarify the discrepancy, please share. > > In the past months, I have already written to Stutzman and other reporters following the case about the timeline discrepancy. > I have been examining the issue for a bit. Not too much info out there about it. > > So, I honestly would appreciate it if you would share any info that you happen to find about the discrepancy. > > Thanks, > ~PX Look at the link that emeraldia posted: [http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor](http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor) Go to Serino’s report and look at page 5 and 6. [https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bzn-XlBIM9nGTW9Mc1hLd2RDQlk](https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bzn-XlBIM9nGTW9Mc1hLd2RDQlk) Note that Templeton is accessing the same computer and same report that you guys are talking about. [http://i.imgur.com/G9zy5.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/G9zy5.jpg) Are you arguing that Singleton has different times because he doesn’t know how to do cut and paste or is it possible that he understands his system better than you? Actually, it looks to me like they use the creation time of 19:11:12 and the rest of the times are derived from the audio recording. Apparently the discrepancy just means that Zimmerman spent one minute and 38 seconds on hold. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4478 "2012-07-25T00:59:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This is false. The state only has to prove his fear was not reasonable. In the case of manslaughter, yes. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4479 "2012-07-25T01:16:12Z")
> [@Zyanthia](#): > > Disclaimer: I think the state does have enough evidence to show manslaughter, not sure about murder, but trying to keep an open mind. > > Now with that said, I do have a question. Why do they keep referring to Trayvon as a child and posting an out-of-date picture? This has been irritating me from the beginning and makes it very hard to keep an open mind. Are they afraid to let the world know what Trayvon really looked like? Are they afraid to let the world know he was a young adult, not a child? > > The answer won’t change what I think of Zimmerman’s actions, but I am angry at the Martin’s deceit as well, and really would like to understand why they chose to do it that way. For the same reason they lied about Trayvon’s record at school, including the _actual_ reasons for his suspensions. The same reason they sealed all of his records. The same reason that Tracy Martin withdrew his denial that the screams weren’t his sons and then decided it was his son’s voice screaming. The same reason Sybrina Fulton withdrew her statement about it being an ‘accident’ that ‘got out of hand’ and then decided Zimmerman ‘murdered my son’. The same reason that they found a reason to be ‘outraged’ each time Zimmerman has expressed regret about the death of their son. I had some degree of respect for Trayvon’s parents in the beginning, but have since grown a bit cynical about their motivations. I won’t say they are in it for the money, but they are letting those that are in it for the money, run the show for them. (i.e., Crump) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4480 "2012-07-25T01:51:45Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Look at the link that emeraldia posted: > [http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor](http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor) This is the 183 page document dump. I have browsed through it before. If there’s a particular one of the 183 pages you want me to look at, it’d be helpful to say which one. Just sayin’ > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Go to Serino’s report and look at page 5 and 6. > [https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bzn-XlBIM9nGTW9Mc1hLd2RDQlk](https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bzn-XlBIM9nGTW9Mc1hLd2RDQlk) I have seen this before as well. Iirc,it’s in that 183 page dump, yes? I think this is where the numbers in the article by Rene Stutzman come from if I am not mistaken. So, we have seen these numbers already in Stutzman’s article. Revealing the numbers again doesn’t do much. But you are working your way back toward the source material. So that’s a good sign, imho. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Note that Templeton is accessing the same computer and same report that you guys are talking about. > [http://i.imgur.com/G9zy5.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/G9zy5.jpg) I kinda already had it in my mind that there was one source document. But good to see that we’re to the point of examining the source material. That’s progress, imho. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Are you arguing that Singleton has different times because he doesn’t know how to do cut and paste or is it possible that he understands his system better than you? AFAICT, I am not arguing either of these things. Ymmv. Rene Stutzman has already pointed out that the SCSO account differs from the SPD’s. So that’s not really a case where we have to rely on my judgment about how to read the event log. At least not as far as I can tell. It seems that we can rely on the SCSO’s reading of the document they created without ever having to reference me or my understanding of the document. ymmv. As such, it doesn’t seem that we actually have an internet poster vs trained police professional as you have framed it. It actually seems to me to involve the SCSO and the SPD. Again, obviously your mileage varies from mine. It does seem in my memory that you have tried to frame this as internet poster vs the SPD before. It’s still not, afaict. Before there was a publicly known discrepancy, I was curious enough to seek out another police officer to help me make sense of the document. His assessment is in line with the SCSO’s account. I hesitate to bring this up again for fear that the main point about the SCSO telling us about the time the call was made rather than me will be side-tracked by this report of my previous efforts and curiosity. But I am telling you to help assuage your concerns that I would willfully ignore evidence if it didn’t fit w/e you think my pre-conceived notion is. I am sincere in my curiosity about this matter. And I really don’t care that much at all about how the case some out in the end. Believe me or not. w/e Also, I don’t have a clue as to how you got the impression that I thought someone couldn’t copy and paste. I did not intend to convey that message about anyone. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Actually, it looks to me like they use the creation time of 19:11:12 and the rest of the times are derived from the audio recording. I noticed that previously as well. It seems that the creation time was used instead of the connection time. the two times are right next to one another. It doesn’t seem like a rare or unusual transcription error to read the line just below instead of the one you intended. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Apparently the discrepancy just means that Zimmerman spent one minute and 38 seconds on hold. Have you gone back through all of the other event logs which were released? If not, you might ought to. I know I did when I started trying to see what was up w/ this issue. You will see that connection time is always just before creation time. It’s as if the connection time is the time that the call connects on their network and the creation time is the time that the first note is saved to the system. Look at the source material for yourself. Decide if the SCSO’s version fits better with the ogs or if the SPD’s version does. Forget about me and what I think. **Decide from among the choices offered by two of Florida’s finest.** The fact that I side with one over the other is insignificant. I am insignificant. Examine the evidence. Look at all the logs and see what you can discern of the system. I can provide you with Seminole county’s 10-codes to help you out if you like. **See if the _SCSO_’s version or the SPD’s version is a better fit with the evidence at hand.** ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4481 "2012-07-25T02:30:49Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > **See if the _SCSO_’s version or the SPD’s version is a better fit with the evidence at hand.** You are mistaking the true scenario. Do I believe a manual data entry by a clerk at **SCSO** or the audio recording by the **SCSO**. I’ll go listen to the audio recording and check Singleton’s time entries. If DragonAsh doesn’t take my bet, would you like to take his place? > [@](#): > > If you are so confident. Why don’t we bet on it?The loser will no longer post in this thread. > > The records you say are gospel said the call disconnected 19:13:27. The records I use say 19:15:23. If you split the difference then the time is 19:14:25. > > When Zimmerman’s cell phone records are published, if the call was disconnected before 19:14:25, then you win. If it is after 19:14:25 I win. If they only publish the time to the minute, then you win 19:13 and I win 19:15 and 19:14 is a push. Obviously I can only make this bet with one person, so Dragonash has first refusal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=223) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=225)