# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 233
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4642 "2012-08-01T15:33:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do we know this to be true? A quarter of his heart was blown away by that bullet. Obvious things are obvious. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4643 "2012-08-01T15:52:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [Cite](http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-05-16/news/31732179_1_autopsy-results-knuckles-injuries) > > _:shrugs:_ > > Regards, > Shodan Your cite is incorrect. Check the primary source: the autopsy report. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4644 "2012-08-01T16:01:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do we know this to be true? I am not a medical professional, but I have read the autopsy report, and some plausible analyses of what happens when a quarter of a heart ceases to exist and a set of lungs collapse. At this point, I would be surprised if a qualified medical professional states that voluntary movement and extended conversation were possible after a gunshot like that. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4645 "2012-08-01T16:08:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is evidence that the part of Zimmerman’s account claiming that Martin sucker punched him in the face, breaking his nose and blackening his eyes, is true. It is also evidence that Martin was the first to initiate violence. Two brothers are fighting. The mom yells at the oldest, 'Michael, stop hitting your brother!". Michael protests, “But Mom, he hit be back first!”. How you can claim that George’s ‘injuries’ are evidence of being ‘sucker-punched’ is beyond me. Do you really think George could have gotten those injuries only if Martin initiated the confrontation, and only if Martin sucker-punched him? The injuries suggest a struggle of some kind. There is ZERO evidence of who punched who first. There is scant evidence for a sustained, savage beat-down as described by George. And George’s narrative of the ‘sucker-punch’ requires the complete suspension of all common sense and any sense of rational thought to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4646 "2012-08-01T16:29:28Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > There is ZERO evidence of who punched who first. Evidence shows that one of the participants was in the struggle was engaged in a phone call when it began. Which one was more likely caught unawares? “Hang on a minute, babe - Ima start a fist fight.” Suuuuuure. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4647 "2012-08-01T17:06:48Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Evidence shows that one of the participants was in the struggle was engaged in a phone call when it began. Which one was more likely caught unawares? “Hang on a minute, babe - Ima start a fist fight.” Suuuuuure. Don’t you remember the theory about that? He was trying to impress her by acting like a thug and beating someone up while he was talking to her. How she’d be impressed by something that she wouldn’t even have been able to see, I don’t know. Ok, well maybe its not an airtight theory then. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4648 "2012-08-01T17:27:22Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > I am not a medical professional, but I have read the autopsy report, and some plausible analyses of what happens when a quarter of a heart ceases to exist and a set of lungs collapse. At this point, I would be surprised if a qualified medical professional states that voluntary movement and extended conversation were possible after a gunshot like that. Well, I am a hunter, and have shot animals in similar fashion. Most, as you intuit, drop immediately. But not all. I absolutely guarantee you that no medical professional will say, _to a medical certainty_, that brief movement and speech were impossible with that injury. > [@you with the face](#): > > Obvious things are obvious. Are you saying it’s impossible, or unlikely? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4649 "2012-08-01T17:31:10Z")
From a 2010 thread (predating the current controversy): > [@Shot through the heart, is death instantaneous?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-through-the-heart-is-death-instantaneous/531511/3): > > The brain has about 4 minutes of oxygen, so no, a heart shot isn’t instant death\*. In fact, depending where the heart is injured, it’s remotely possible to survive. That would only be if sophicated medical care was immediately at hand. > > \*I have sad personal knowledge of this. My grandfather shot himself in the heart. I was the first to reach him. He was able to say my name before he died. > [@Shot through the heart, is death instantaneous?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shot-through-the-heart-is-death-instantaneous/531511/18): > > How much misinformation and speculation can we squeeze into a single GQ thread? > > Firstly, there is good research done on the subject of what constitutes an incapacitating shot done by the FBI. It is available online if you want to spend your time looking for it. There are numerous first hand accounts of people shot through the heart who continued to run and fight for several seconds afterwards. > > We have literally dozens of examples of people shot through the heart by firing squad who lived for minutes, in one case almost half an hour, afterwards. That these people were shot through the heart can’t be denied because it was confirmed by autopsy. Many of these firing squad subjects either retained or regained consciousness after being shot through the heart. In the British Army, one of the more unpleasant tasks of the officer in charge of the squad was to remain with the body for a minute after the execution. If the person was still alive they were required to deliver the coup de grace with a handgun round to the brain. The pain often caused the person to pass out but they would occasionally regain consciousness fairly rapidly. People breathing and moving after being shot was a normal occurrence and one reason why it was harder to find officer to volunteer for firing squads than enlisted men. > > So there is no disputing that being shot through the heart isn’t instantaneously fatal a large proportion of the time. > > According to the CIA there are only two ways to instantly take somebody down with a bullet: a hit to the central nervous system or breaking the major leg bones. That is it. Any other wound at all, including heart shots, leaves the target with a very good chance of moving towards you and firing. > > Secondly, the concept of hydrostatic shock is still being debated, but most ballistics experts don’t believe it exists to any appreciable degree. The idea of rifle rounds turning organs to mush through hydrostatic shock is simply not true, or at least no evidence of it has ever been found in the real world. > > Even if we accept that hydrostatic shock exists, the idea of hydrostatic shock travelling though the blood vessels to the brain and causing brain damage is simply ridiculous. Firstly it would require a round that struck but did not penetrate the ventricle. If it penetrated then any pressure would be dispersed out through the holes, just like the famous strobe photo of an apple being shot. Secondly it would require that the shot hit just as the ventricle was beginning to contract. A hit at any other time would have no fluid to displace. Even if those two highly improbable events did occur, the brain doesn’t have a dedicated blood vessel from the heart. Any pressure increase would be distributed across the entire body, not transmitted ot the brain. The pressure compensation mechanisms that prevent the brain from experiencing excess pressure would easily cope with the tiny fraction of extra pressure that this miracle shot could produce. > > 250 milliseconds if done correctly. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. Pressure on the carotid sinus causes loss of consciousness though a nervous reflex designed to protect the brain form pressure fluctuation. It occurs regardless of how much or how little blood the brain is actually getting. As such it has absolutely no relevance to this thread. What is your response, **you with the face**? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4650 "2012-08-01T17:32:28Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Your cite is incorrect. Check the primary source: the autopsy report. I don’t know why I bother - you are obviously not paying attention even to the basic facts. From the autopsy report ([cite](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf) - pdf) > [@](#): > > Other injuries: There is a 1/4 by 1/8 inch small abrasion on the left fourth finger. [QUOTE=Dragon Ash] Two brothers are fighting. The mom yells at the oldest, 'Michael, stop hitting your brother!". Michael protests, “But Mom, he hit be back first!”. [/QUOTE] And if the younger brother has a broken nose, two black eyes, and gashes to the back of his head, and Michael doesn’t have a mark on him besides a scrape on his knuckles, do you believe Michael? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > [From his call with SPD](http://bizsecurity.about.com/od/creatingpolicies/a/A-Transcript-Of-The-George-Zimmerman-Police-Call.htm): > > In your world, what do you think this is evidence of? I am afraid you are mistaken. Zimmerman says rather clearly - > [@](#): > > I don’t know where this kid is. after the dispatcher tells him that ‘we don’t need you to (follow Martin)’, to which Zimmerman responds “OK”. Further evidence that Zimmerman got out to look at house numbers is where he says he doesn’t know house numbers - > [@](#): > > **Dispatcher** > > What address are you parked in front of? > > **Zimmerman** > > I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address. IOW, this is another part of Zimmerman’s account that is backed up by evidence. Zimmerman’s account that he was not following Zimmerman, but that Zimmerman came back and attacked him, is backed up by Zimmerman’s statement “these assholes, they always get away” and also “I don’t know where this kid is”. It is hard to follow someone if you don’t know where they are. Zimmerman’s account that he was not following Martin when Martin attacked him is backed up by his statement that he doesn’t know house numbers. IOW, according to the parts of Zimmerman’s account that have evidence to back them up, Zimmerman was following Martin, lost him, and went to look at the house number so the police would know where to meet him. Then Martin came back, and attacked Zimmerman. And this is the same story Zimmerman has been telling all along. You don’t have to take his word for it - like I say, ignore all the parts that don’t have evidence behind them. The parts that do have evidence behind them are what Zimmerman has been saying from the get-go. Yes, there are clearly parts that do not have evidence behind them. If the State wishes to use any of those parts against Zimmerman, **they have to disprove them.** They cannot simply assert that they are lies - they have to present proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the argument is “Zimmerman exaggerated and/or said self-serving stuff, so if he said something, that proves it didn’t happen”, no, it doesn’t work that way. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4651 "2012-08-01T17:35:01Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Two brothers are fighting. The mom yells at the oldest, 'Michael, stop hitting your brother!". Michael protests, “But Mom, he hit be back first!”. > > How you can claim that George’s ‘injuries’ are evidence of being ‘sucker-punched’ is beyond me. Do you really think George could have gotten those injuries only if Martin initiated the confrontation, and only if Martin sucker-punched him? > > The injuries suggest a struggle of some kind. There is ZERO evidence of who punched who first. There is scant evidence for a sustained, savage beat-down as described by George. And George’s narrative of the ‘sucker-punch’ requires the complete suspension of all common sense and any sense of rational thought to believe. There’s no evidence that Zimmerman punched Martin at all, either before or after Martin struck him. The injuries to Zimmerman’s head and Martin’s hand are strong evidence that Martin struck Zimmerman. So, logically, Martin must have punched first. It’s possible Zimmerman grabbed or threatened Martin in such a way that would justify him punching him, although there’s no evidence for it, but there’s no reason for Martin to continue the attack. Don’t forget, even if Zimmerman did start the physical confrontation, he’s still entitled to use lethal force in self defence if he has no other option to escape. ETA: All that said, that Martin sucker punched him, or at least attacked him without provocation, is still the most likely option. Zimmerman knew the police were on the way, so he’s not going to attack someone in that circumstance. He’s dumb, but not that dumb. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4652 "2012-08-01T18:30:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What is your response, **you with the face**? Okay, so I’m suddenly supposed to find Zimmerman’s claims about Martin credible because two posters on the SDMB posted some unverfified stories about bullet wounds in the heart? It’s crazy, I know, but I get the distinct impression that you couldn’t find a reputable source to come back at me with via google, so instead you cite random personages on the SDMB as though we’re all a bunch of cardiologists in here. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4653 "2012-08-01T18:38:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay, so I’m suddenly supposed to find Zimmerman’s claims about Martin credible because two posters on the SDMB posted some unverfified stories about bullet wounds in the heart? It’s crazy, I know, but I get the distinct impression that you couldn’t find a reputable source to come back at me with via google, so instead you cite random personages on the SDMB as though we’re all a bunch of cardiologists in here. > **[Instant Death Bullet - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InstantDeathBullet)** > > In works of fiction, guns behave in strange ways. Often, and especially in gritty action films and old-timey westerns, guns seem to fire not bullets but death itself. No one is ever seen to be wounded, attempts to limp or crawl away, or lies in … ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4654 "2012-08-01T18:43:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I I am afraid you are mistaken. Zimmerman says rather clearly -"I don’t know where this kid is. " > > after the dispatcher tells him that ‘we don’t need you to (follow Martin)’, to which Zimmerman responds “OK”. He didn’t know where the kid is because the _kid ran away from him_, and he lost sight of Martin in the darkness. This doesn’t alter the fact that Zimmerman was following him. And so what if he said “Okay” in response to the dispatcher? “Okay” is not evidence that Zimmerman stopped his pursuit. Taken literally, it’s only evidence that Zimmerman merely heard and understood what the dispatcher had just said. > [@](#): > > Further evidence that Zimmerman got out to look at house numbers is where he says he doesn’t know house numbers - That’s not evidence that he exited the car to find a house number. Evidence would be him actually saying “I’m looking for a house number”. Not once did he say that. All he acknowledged was following Martin. > [@](#): > > IOW, this is another part of Zimmerman’s account that is backed up by evidence. Zimmerman’s account that he was not following Zimmerman, but that Zimmerman came back and attacked him, is backed up by Zimmerman’s statement “these assholes, they always get away” and also “I don’t know where this kid is”. It is hard to follow someone if you don’t know where they are. And yet he did say he was following him. No amount of denial will change this irrefutable fact. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4655 "2012-08-01T18:46:16Z")
It’s not that its unsubstantiated anecdotes that bothers me; it’s that they are anecdotes on the extreme ends of possibility. Sure, there was a guy once who got a spike driven through his skull and suffered no long term effects, but that’s hardly the norm. And when a bullet rips away the better part of a heart, sure maybe one chance in a million that the guy could make a speech before keeling over, but that’s hardly the norm. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4656 "2012-08-01T18:46:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Instant Death Bullet - TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InstantDeathBullet) I rip on **Bricker** for citing the SDMB and _this_ is what you come back with. Lol ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4657 "2012-08-01T18:54:52Z")
And **Terr** , next time you scrape the bottom of the barrel for medical information, you just might want to read it before posting it. I mean, it’s only 6 paragraphs. > [@Tv Tropes.org](#): > > \*\*This [Instant Death] trope may be justified if, for example, hollow-point bullets hit soft tissue, resulting in hydrodynamic shock and massive tissue damage. \*\*Also, trained snipers often target the medulla oblongata of the brain (thereby shutting off cardiac and respiratory function while isolating the higher brain functions from the spinal column), which causes target activity to cease immediately and permanently. Martin was killed by a hollow point bullet. Having 25% of your heart blasted away would cause massive “hydrodynamic shock”, doncha think? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4658 "2012-08-01T19:10:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And **Terr** , next time you scrape the bottom of the barrel for medical information, you just might want to read it before posting it. I mean, it’s only 6 paragraphs. > > Martin was killed by a hollow point bullet. Having 25% of your heart blasted away would cause massive “hydrodynamic shock”, doncha think? Would you believe the FBI? [http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf](http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf) “For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.” “Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.” … and before you tell me of “hydrodynamic shock”: from the same document “The much discussed “shock” of bullet impact is a fable and “knock down” power is a myth.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4659 "2012-08-01T19:11:44Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > It’s not that its unsubstantiated anecdotes that bothers me; it’s that they are anecdotes on the extreme ends of possibility. Sure, there was a guy once who got a spike driven through his skull and suffered no long term effects, but that’s hardly the norm. > > And when a bullet rips away the better part of a heart, sure maybe one chance in a million that the guy could make a speech before keeling over, but that’s hardly the norm. The FBI says different. But I guess you and ywtf know better. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4660 "2012-08-01T19:31:42Z")
The FBI says everyone who gets shot in the heart with a hollow point bullet from a foot away monologizes before they snuff it? Ok. Thanks Agent Liddy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4661 "2012-08-01T19:35:40Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > The FBI says everyone who gets shot in the heart with a hollow point bullet from a foot away monologizes before they snuff it? “Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=232) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=234)