# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 236
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4702 "2012-08-02T09:16:22Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You and **Terr** are currently running neck and neck in the I’ll Make Myself Look Real Stupid and Desperate by Citing Complete Crap contest. Let’s stay away from seeming to call other people stupid in this forum, please. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4703 "2012-08-02T14:10:07Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > After all, freshly decapitated chickens are capable of running around for a few seconds, while there are no credible stories of freshly decapitated humans doing the same. Thus, that makes me suspect that there could be differences between deer and human nervous systems that lead to different reactions to similar wounds. You should probably look up the difference between a mammal and a bird. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4704 "2012-08-02T14:36:48Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > I have to, if not reject, put that first claim on hold because I am unable to read the book, and have not been able to find a more in-depth look at that case online. So, I don’t know if that really happened or, more to the point, how that man’s injuries compared to Trayvon’s. And remind me again what the basis for rejecting the older citations was – you know, the ones where you COULD read the book? See, normally in debate, at this point the onus of proof would fall to you; I have provided enough citations to authority to show that brief movement and speech is possible even after such a wound. Your response appears to be simply, “No, it isn’t.” ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4705 "2012-08-02T16:30:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And remind me again what the basis for rejecting the older citations was – you know, the ones where you COULD read the book? > > See, normally in debate, at this point the onus of proof would fall to you; I have provided enough citations to authority to show that brief movement and speech is possible even after such a wound. Your response appears to be simply, “No, it isn’t.” I had thought this was pretty compelling: > [@Terr](#): > > Would you believe the FBI? > > [http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf](http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf) > > “For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.” > > “Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4706 "2012-08-02T17:22:42Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > …I’d also like to hear more about how deer and human gunshot injuries compare and contrast. After all, freshly decapitated chickens are capable of running around for a few seconds, while there are no credible stories of freshly decapitated humans doing the same. Thus, that makes me suspect that there could be differences between deer and human nervous systems that lead to different reactions to similar wounds. Simply put, the lungs take in air, oxygen is transfered to the blood stream, the heart pumps the oygen-rich blood thru the circulatory system, oxygen is transfered to muscle tissue and organs, waste product is carried away and eventually filtered out, and the process is repeated. If the heart stops pumping, no new oxygen is being brought to the muscle tissue and organs. The muscle tissue and organs begin to die which takes many seconds or minutes. When the heart has a hole in it, the heart’s pumping action pushes some of the blood into the chest cavity reducing the amount of blood being pushed into the arteries. The muscles and organs become weaker until they are unable to function. When a lung has a hole in it, air is pushed into the chest cavity. If that hole is a result of a foreign object being pushed thru the chest cavity wall exposing the lungs to external air pressure, the higher outside air pressure causes the lung(s) to collapse. Collapsed lungs can not transfer oxygen to the blood stream. The muscles and organs become weaker until they are unable to function. How long a mammal can survive with a hole in either the heart or lungs or both, depends on how much oxygen was available to the tissue and organs when the blood supply was reduced or stopped. I hope this helps cover the basics. The bottomline is that a human being or deer can function for several minutes after being shot or stabbed in the heart/lungs. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4707 "2012-08-03T00:50:58Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > One basic fact is that one abrasion equals one injury, not injuries as your incorrect cite states in post 4635. Another basic fact is that the abrasion is not located on Martin’s knuckle, as the chart attached to the autopsy report shows. Hence, Martin’s knuckles? Unscathed. > > Also note that the abrasion is 1/4 by 1/8 inch in size. I’ve had larger marks on my fingers from torn hangnails. And your point is what exactly? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4708 "2012-08-03T01:28:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And your point is what exactly? afaict, it’s tha the abrasion was on a part of TM’s finger which is not the knuckle The significance of the distinction is harder to come by than what the distinction is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4709 "2012-08-03T17:09:46Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > I had thought this was pretty compelling: I agree. Well, **sugaree**? **you with the face**? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4710 "2012-08-03T17:35:33Z")
It’s a friggin’ “Magic Bullet” argument. The whole crux of it is … “you know not everyone who has their heart obliterated dies right away. In rare cases, they actually make a speech first.” Fine. Great. Dandy. So if the defense presents that as evidence, I’m sure the prosecution will come right back with a medical expert of their own saying, “judging by the damage to his system, in my expert opinion, Mr. Martin died immediately.” Then we’re right back to, “yeah, but this one time, when some other guy got shot in the heart, it didn’t happen like that. Besides, I’m a deer hunter, so I know.” I say again, while the however many minutes of oxygen the brain has left over is interesting, it doesn’t prove shit, because the outcome that you’re claiming probably happened (that Martin didn’t die right away, but said, “You got me, sherriff” first) is not the norm. That would be an exception. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4711 "2012-08-03T17:47:41Z")
**Bricker** , instead of yammering on a point that at the end of the day has little to do with Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence, why don’t you answer the questions I’ve repeatedly (and politely) asked you twice already. If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you’re dodging what should be an extremely straightforward request. Here are my questions for the third time: What is the minimum evidence that could convince you that Zimmerman is criminally culpable? You keep saying the state hasn’t shown enough evidence for 2nd degree murder. What is an example of something that would meet that for you? What part of Zimmerman’s story do you believe? All of it? None of it? Some of it? If the latter, how have you decided what parts are believable and which are not? Do you consider him a credible witness based on the evidence against him? If you don’t think he’s credible and therefore don’t put much, if any, stock in his narrative, what state evidence do you think is lacking that shows this killing was an unjustified one? In other words, if we completely take Zimmerman’s statement off the table due to his lack of crediblity and solely look at the State’s case, what evidence in their possession fails to show that Zimmerman killed Martin, that he had ill-will towards the kid, and that a depraved mind figured into his taking Martin’s life that night? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4712 "2012-08-03T18:01:51Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Fine. Great. Dandy. So if the defense presents that as evidence, I’m sure the prosecution will come right back with a medical expert of their own saying, “judging by the damage to his system, in my expert opinion, Mr. Martin died immediately.” Or how about “…judging by the damage to his system, in my expert opinion, Mr. Martin was wounded in a way that would have made speech difficult if not impossible”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4713 "2012-08-03T18:14:34Z")
Because the State would have to prove it _didn’t_ happen beyond a reasonable doubt. “Difficult if not impossible” leaves room for reasonable doubt. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4714 "2012-08-03T18:20:11Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4715 "2012-08-03T19:06:31Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Or how about “…judging by the damage to his system, in my expert opinion, Mr. Martin was wounded in a way that would have made speech difficult if not impossible”. You are assuming an expert witness that would perjure themself. The trajectory of the bullet simply is not consistent with the effect you are talking about. What you are talking about is a shot to the central nervous system that would immediately incapacitate the target. Go to this link and go to page 192. [http://books.google.com/books?id=\_2zqCm-QRHoC&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=police+sniper+aim+for+central+nervous+system+hostage&source=bl&ots=MA2pRv2c49&sig=e-Zs\_gWH-2GKqq7Ysu2qdAWsDv4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6BYcUK9pwtjRAdDggcgE&ved=0CFMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=police%20sniper%20aim%20for%20central%20nervous%20system%20hostage&f=false](http://books.google.com/books?id=_2zqCm-QRHoC&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=police+sniper+aim+for+central+nervous+system+hostage&source=bl&ots=MA2pRv2c49&sig=e-Zs_gWH-2GKqq7Ysu2qdAWsDv4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6BYcUK9pwtjRAdDggcgE&ved=0CFMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=police%20sniper%20aim%20for%20central%20nervous%20system%20hostage&f=false) You are talking about the kind of wound that a police sniper would be trying for in a hostage situation. If you actually have a cite where an expert witness actually said what you said with a similar wound then trot it out. If Trayvon Martin had actually got shot through the larynx, then he probably wouldn’t say anything either, but the bullet didn’t go anywhere near there either. You seem to have given up on convicting Zimmerman based on real evidence and are using fantasy evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4716 "2012-08-03T19:15:28Z")
Fantasy evidence. Nice. You’ve got Martin dancing around and making speeches with only three quarters of a heart and no lungs. Yeah, you’re on rock-solid ground there. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4717 "2012-08-03T19:16:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because the State would have to prove it _didn’t_ happen beyond a reasonable doubt. “Difficult if not impossible” leaves room for reasonable doubt. A claim doesn’t have to be proven impossible for a jury to rightfully reject it as false. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4718 "2012-08-03T19:29:31Z")
Martin sitting up and saying “okay, you got it” is the least of it yall. If that was the only thing in Zimmerman’s statement that stinks to high heaven, maybe it would make sense to go dumpster diving for any ole cite that supports the possibility of this happening. But it’s not the only that stinks. Zimmerman’s credibility is killed well before we get to this implausible detail of his story, and it’s not even relevant to his guilt. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4719 "2012-08-03T19:31:08Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Fantasy evidence. Nice. You’ve got Martin dancing around and making speeches with only three quarters of a heart and no lungs. Yeah, you’re on rock-solid ground there. You are the one that is making up stuff that Martin didn’t do. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4720 "2012-08-03T19:52:35Z")
It’s a fair cop. I’m also willing to claim right now that Martin didn’t juggle (I just made that up). ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4721 "2012-08-03T21:29:18Z")
“You got me” is improbable and “You’re going to die tonight” is laughable, but the hardcore Zimmies will believe anything, apparently. ```php ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=235) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=237)