# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 240
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4783 "2012-08-07T20:24:19Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > That she “knew” some attorneys is not the least bit shocking. That she would describe the attorneys representing Trayvon’s parents as her _friends_ is. That she would do so publicly even more so. Ok, so your position is that lawyers should not be able to be friends with other lawyers? Is that right? You find it shocking that a lawyer has friends that are lawyers? Do you have any friends that do the same kind of work that you do? Your ability to manufacture outrage is quite impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4784 "2012-08-07T20:24:44Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > That she “knew” some attorneys is not the least bit shocking. That she would describe the attorneys representing Trayvon’s parents as her _friends_ is. That she would do so publicly even more so. I don’t understand. Lawyers work together. Lawyers have friends among the people they work with, even prosecutors and defense attorneys. They don’t take these cases personally, you know. I don’t find this suspicious in the least. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4785 "2012-08-07T20:41:11Z")
Apparently, I need to go a step further. That she would describe the attorneys _representing one of the two sides in this case_ as her _friends_ is, at the very _least_ an example of blatant kowtowing in their favor. Could you\* imagine\* if she had said, “I’ve spoken to George Zimmerman and his parents- they are amazing people, and his lawyers, who are friends of mine…”? Of _course_ not. She would have _never_ said such a thing, even if it were true. Which it would not be true since neither she, nor Angela Corey, nor the governor ever bothered to even talk to George Zimmerman (or his parents), much less offer any assurances that there would be justice for them. Not to mention that Zimmerman had not even _hired_ a lawyer at that point for her to be friends with because he apparently had confidence in the fairness of the judicial system. (I bet he’ll never make that mistake again.) The bias that came from the governor on down in this case is staggering and blatant. You can _pretend_ not to see it and keep framing little straw-men questions, but it speaks for itself to all but the willfully ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4786 "2012-08-07T20:47:31Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Apparently, I need to go a step further. > > That she would describe the attorneys _representing one of the two sides in this case_ as her _friends_ is, at the very _least_ an example of blatant kowtowing in their favor. Which side of the George Zimmerman murder trial are the lawyers for Trayvon Martin’s family representing? Who will they be arguing in court on behalf of during the trial? This case is the state of Florida against George Zimmerman. The lawyers for Trayvon Martin’s family are not involved in this case any way. Italics or not. Rather then taking any further steps, might I suggest that perhaps you may have already taken a step or three too far already? ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4787 "2012-08-07T21:46:40Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Which side of the George Zimmerman murder trial are the lawyers for Trayvon Martin’s family representing? At the time these statements were made? They were blatantly and aggressively advocating on behalf of Trayvon Martin’s parents for the state to arrest and prosecute George Zimmerman. > [@](#): > > This case is the state of Florida against George Zimmerman. It sure is- and we know exactly how that came about. > [@](#): > > Who will they be arguing in court on behalf of during the trial? They will argue in court on behalf of Trayvon’s parents of course, in future civil trials. Regarding the criminal case, they argue on behalf of the prosecution- outside of the court room. > [@](#): > > The lawyers for Trayvon Martin’s family are not involved in this case any way. Really? Then that makes it all the more odd that Bondi would mention they were friends of hers. And didn’t I see them standing next to Mary Cutcher, her roommate, and other witnesses in the criminal case? Didn’t they talk to the prosecution’s “star witness” Dee Dee before Corey’s “impartial investigator” did? Don’t they speak out on every development in the case- and doesn’t the media often quote them? Hmm, seems to me that they are extremely involved in this case, particularly _before_ its very inception. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4788 "2012-08-07T22:38:22Z")
It truly is an outrage that the State of Florida didn’t reach out to the murderers parents. Conservative tree house = white-supremacist shithole. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4789 "2012-08-08T00:56:28Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > It truly is an outrage that the State of Florida didn’t reach out to the murderers parents. Conservative tree house = white-supremacist shithole. I’ll interpret the specious counters as an indication that the Trayvengers can dispute neither the truth of the premises nor the validity of the conclusion drawn from them. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4790 "2012-08-08T11:33:15Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Yes, I’m saying that George Zimmerman is being prosecuted for political reasons, and that this decision was made long before Corey launched her “investigation”. > > And it gets much worse. I couldn’t believe that Pam Bondi actually said that the attorneys for Trayvon Martin were “friends of mine”. But yes, this user accurately quoted what she said in the video linked below. Anyway, here is a comment from one of the people on CT with (for Jack Batty) _ **citations** _ for everything. > > I added italics, highlights, and a few numbers and comments, but vast majority was put together by the user above. Well we have several parts breathless speculation over quotes that suggest our criminal justice system is involved with scary politicizations like “justice” and “due process.” Not seeing the hard evidence that GZ wouldn’t’ve been prosecuted outside of political concerns though. Surely there’s some ration of hard evidence which is called for in this recipe? ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4791 "2012-08-08T12:01:56Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Well we have several parts breathless speculation over quotes that suggest our criminal justice system is involved with scary politicizations like “justice” and “due process.” > Not seeing the hard evidence that GZ wouldn’t’ve been prosecuted outside of political concerns though. > Surely there’s some ration of hard evidence which is called for in this recipe? First, they aren’t going to charge him with anything. Then people protest and demand he be charged. A.G. takes over, obviously inclined to charge him before the investigation has even begun. It’s pretty simple, pretty obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4792 "2012-08-08T12:07:36Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > A.G. takes over, obviously inclined to charge him before the investigation has even begun. This is where your argument falls apart. Nothing is obvious just because you desperately want it to be so. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4793 "2012-08-08T12:53:48Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > It truly is an outrage that the State of Florida didn’t reach out to the murderers parents. It truly is an outrage that the State of Florida didn’t reach out to the parent’s of the victim of a serious, potentially life threatening, unprovoked attack, and instead reached out to the parents of the attacker. Well, no it isn’t, but it’s more true than your statement. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4794 "2012-08-08T13:51:56Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > First, they aren’t going to charge him with anything. Iirc, it as because they had not finished their investigation. This was patiently explained by GZ supporters at the time. They don’t arrest someone and then gather evidence to support the arrest. > [@emeraldia](#): > > A.G. takes over, obviously inclined to charge him before the investigation has even begun. The AG “took over” on February 25th? Or earlier in the day on the 26th? Didn’t the investigation begin on the night of the shooting? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4795 "2012-08-08T14:46:00Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Interesting. I looked at the plat map and it appears to me that Trayvon Martin’s head could have been on been on 1211 Twin Trees and his feet were on 1221 Twin Trees. Could both home owners be sued? Since Trayvon’s body was likely moved, by those applying first aid, by Zimmerman’s tackling him, and perhaps the fact you don’t die immediately, even from a bullet to the heart, and could conceivably take some steps, how would they know exactly whose place the fatal shot was fired? Just because the body ended up there, doesn’t mean that’s where the shooting occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4796 "2012-08-08T15:16:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > [http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/](http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/) > > The SDMB is not the only message board that is discussing this case, btw. If you really think there is a consensus among lawyers that the State’s case against GZ is insufficient based on available info, you really need to get out more. Here is the “About” section from that blog: > [@](#): > > I am an author, blogger, former law professor, and former felony criminal defense attorney in state and federal courts specializing in death penalty defense, forensics, and complex litigation. I believe in due process, equal justice under law, the rule of law, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. I am not now, never have been, and never aspired to be a member of the 1%. > > I created this blog to inform and be of service to we the people by demystifying and teaching the law as well as promoting and facilitating a well informed discussion about legal matters. > > I believe our country is ruled by greed and our legal and political system has been corrupted and broken by the 1%. We need to fix it and we need to fix it now. > > If you wish to follow me on twitter, my name there is Masoninblue. > > If you are interested in my other website, which is about what we must do to change ourselves and create a peaceful and sustainable future in harmony with Gaia, our mother and the fabled Garden of Eden, please go to [http://masonbennu.wordpress.com](http://masonbennu.wordpress.com) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4797 "2012-08-08T15:41:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here is the “About” section from that blog: And I have found a declaration from Mr. Leatherman in which he acknowledges prejudging a specific client’s guilt and therefore failing to investigate the client’s claims of actual innocence, or even representing him in any effective way. I have also read much of his commentary. The post in which he called for the state to indict Zimmerman was made before the evidence was released. No matter what his skills, I don’t see how you can advance this as an example of someone who believes the state has a string case, since his opinion was formed without an examination of all the available evidence. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4798 "2012-08-08T16:24:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The post in which he called for the state to indict Zimmerman was made before the evidence was released. No matter what his skills, I don’t see how you can advance this as an example of someone who believes the state has a string case, since his opinion was formed without an examination of all the available evidence. You asked me for evidence that there are lawyers who disagree with your assessment about Zimmerman’s case. I provided such evidence. The only thing you should say be saying right now is thanks. Not posting an amazingly transparent strawman. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4799 "2012-08-08T16:50:27Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Nothing is obvious just because you desperately want it to be so. I’m _so very, very sorry_ to say that it doesn’t get much more obvious. I’ve heard from Zimmerman (he is such an amazing person), and his lawyers (who are friends of mine), and they say the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4800 "2012-08-08T17:09:50Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Iirc, it as because they had not finished their investigation. The AG “took over” on February 25th? Or earlier in the day on the 26th? > Didn’t the investigation begin on the night of the shooting? From Wikipedia- check the citations yourself: > [@](#): > > On **March 13** , 2012, Chris Serino sent a capias request to the state’s attorney recommending charges of negligent manslaughter against Zimmerman, though Serino maintains he did not believe they had the evidence to support those charges and that manslaughter was only included in the capias in order for the prosecutor’s office to continue with their own investigation [113] [114][115][116] > [@](#): > > The State Attorney’s office initially determined there was insufficient evidence to charge Zimmerman and did not file charges based on the capias request. [116][118][119] > [@](#): > > On **March 16** , Serino told the Orlando Sentinel that his investigation had turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman’s account, that he had acted in self-defense. “ **The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event, everything I have is adding up to what he says**.”[120] > [@](#): > > On **March 20** , 2012, State attorney Norm Wolfinger announced that a Seminole County grand jury would be convened on April 10 to investigate the death of Martin.[121][122][123] > [@](#): > > _On **March 21** , 2012 IN NEW YORK CITY LIMO (With Crump) > 6:04-6:38 Pam Bondi: “Hey Sybrina, Tracy, are you there. Hi. I am so very, very, sorry. As attorney general, I have absolutely no legal authority to take the case, and I looked, I tried.”_ > [@](#): > > However, after State Attorney Angela Corey was assigned to the case by Florida Governor Rick Scott on\*\* March 22\*\*, she decided that her office would decide whether to press charges. “…I foresee us being able to make a decision, and move on it on our own.”[54] Oh, I’m _sure_ she did indeed ‘foresee’ that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4801 "2012-08-08T17:21:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You asked me for evidence that there are lawyers who disagree with your assessment about Zimmerman’s case. I provided such evidence. The only thing you should say be saying right now is thanks. Not posting an amazingly transparent strawman. Actually, you are the one creating the strawman. You didn’t just say “there are lawyers that disagree with your assessment”. You said that there was not a consensus among attorney’s that the State’s case is currently weak. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > [If I were the judge l would admit expert opinion evidence regarding who uttered the death shriek | Frederick Leatherman Law Blog](http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/If) you really think there is a consensus among lawyers that the State’s case against GZ is insufficient based on available info, you really need to get out more. The evidence you provide in support of this claim amounts to a _single_ attorney, who happens to be a crackpot, that obviously rushed to judgement. I listed four off the top of my head. And the nutty professor is all you are able to come up with? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4802 "2012-08-08T18:05:22Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > From Wikipedia- check the citations yourself: > Oh, I’m _sure_ she did indeed ‘foresee’ that. 😉 Seems like the investigation was underway starting February 26th and whatshernose took the case after the investigation started, not before it had begun. You’ll have to do some more work to convince me that she took the case before the investigation began on February 26th. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=239) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=241)