# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 241
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4803 "2012-08-08T18:06:33Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Since Trayvon’s body was likely moved, by those applying first aid, by Zimmerman’s tackling him, and perhaps the fact you don’t die immediately, even from a bullet to the heart, and could conceivably take some steps, how would they know exactly whose place the fatal shot was fired? Just because the body ended up there, doesn’t mean that’s where the shooting occurred. It doesn’t mean that “somebody” couldn’t attempt to sue the homeowners either. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4804 "2012-08-08T19:13:34Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You asked me for evidence that there are lawyers who disagree with your assessment about Zimmerman’s case. > > I provided such evidence. > > The only thing you should say be saying right now is thanks. Not posting an amazingly transparent strawman. Well, no. I asked for lawyer **s**. You have provided **a** lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4805 "2012-08-08T19:19:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, no. I asked for lawyer **s**. > > You have provided **a** lawyer. Only because that’s what you asked me to do. > [@you with the face](#): > > You must not be looking very hard. Pages ago, I linked to a blog that is written by a criminal lawyer who seems to think there is plenty of evidence against Zimmerman. > [@Bricker](#): > > I must have missed it. Would you mind reposting it? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4806 "2012-08-08T20:13:22Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Since Trayvon’s body was likely moved, by those applying first aid, by Zimmerman’s tackling him, and perhaps the fact you don’t die immediately, even from a bullet to the heart, and could conceivably take some steps, how would they know exactly whose place the fatal shot was fired? Just because the body ended up there, doesn’t mean that’s where the shooting occurred. Obviously Crump would sue both homeowners and the HOA and Zimmerman and the City of Sanford and let the court sort it out. BTW, I’m not saying the list above is exhaustive. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4807 "2012-08-08T20:41:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You asked me for evidence that there are lawyers who disagree with your assessment about Zimmerman’s case. > > I provided such evidence. > > The only thing you should say be saying right now is thanks. Not posting an amazingly transparent strawman. given that your cite didn’t have the facts before rendering an opinion that would put his legal opinion in the realm of a psychic. Thanks? ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4808 "2012-08-08T21:21:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Only because that’s what you asked me to do. Is it safe to conclude that the radical-leftist professor is the only attorney you’ve found that thinks the State has a strong case against Zimmerman (based on what is currently known to the public)? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4809 "2012-08-08T23:42:03Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Is it safe to conclude that the radical-leftist professor is the only attorney you’ve found that thinks the State has a strong case against Zimmerman (based on what is currently known to the public)? No. Believe it or not, **Bricker** isn’t the authority on Legal Opinions Everywhere and there are other message boards where people–some of whom are lawyers, gasp!–have viewpoints that differ his. I find it quite cute that this comes as a shocker to you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4810 "2012-08-09T01:14:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Only because that’s what you asked me to do. Not really. It’s true I asked you for that link, but my original request was in response to this statement of yours: > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It doesn’t matter what rules I’m familiar with. It’s the lawyers who clearly disagree with your opinion and who actually have some skin in the game that you should be reserving your condenscension for. The lawyers, plural, who disagree with me, are what I asked you for. You’ve given me a lawyer, singular, who disagreed with me at a some point in the past. Have you another lawyer in mind, since you did say lawyers, plural? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4811 "2012-08-09T01:35:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > No. Believe it or not, **Bricker** isn’t the authority on Legal Opinions Everywhere and there are other message boards where people–some of whom are lawyers, gasp!–have viewpoints that differ his. > > I find it quite cute that this comes as a shocker to you. It is a good thing you don’t read Jeralyn E. Merritt’s blog. She is a defense attorney and is far more critical of the prosecution in this case than Bricker. [http://www.talkleft.com/](http://www.talkleft.com/) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4812 "2012-08-09T02:53:27Z")
[http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/42-there-will-be-a-stand-your-ground-hearing-in-the-george-zimmerman-case](http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/42-there-will-be-a-stand-your-ground-hearing-in-the-george-zimmerman-case) ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4813 "2012-08-09T03:42:24Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > [http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/42-there-will-be-a-stand-your-ground-hearing-in-the-george-zimmerman-case](http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/42-there-will-be-a-stand-your-ground-hearing-in-the-george-zimmerman-case) “Now that the State has released the majority of their discovery..” Does he mean to the public or to him? I’d like to know if _he_ has seen everything that they have. I guess he means to him. Wonder when their deadline is for doing all of it? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4814 "2012-08-09T06:03:35Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > “Now that the State has released the majority of their discovery..” Does he mean to the public or to him? I’d like to know if _he_ has seen everything that they have. I guess he means to him. Wonder when their deadline is for doing all of it? I pretty sure he means him. The are witnesses we haven’t seen yet, especially the expert witnesses. We also have some cell phone records we haven’t seen yet. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4815 "2012-08-09T11:12:35Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > [http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/42-there-will-be-a-stand-your-ground-hearing-in-the-george-zimmerman-case](http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/42-there-will-be-a-stand-your-ground-hearing-in-the-george-zimmerman-case) So the defence believes that they can prove him innocent, not just that the State can’t prove him guilty. Interesting, this will show whether Zimmerman is a credible witness or not. If he loses the SYG hearing, is the fact of that loss admissible at trial? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4816 "2012-08-09T13:45:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The lawyers, plural, who disagree with me, are what I asked you for. You’ve given me a lawyer, singular, who disagreed with me at a some point in the past. The only lawyers who actually “have some skin in the game” are Corey, Gilbreath, de la Rionda, O’Mara, and West. Pick among this list to find the ones who probably disagree with your position. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4817 "2012-08-09T13:51:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So the defence believes that they can prove him innocent, not just that the State can’t prove him guilty. I wonder what evidence they are planning to use to show that? All the defense’s evidence has presumably been released. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4818 "2012-08-09T14:50:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The only lawyers who actually “have some skin in the game” are Corey, Gilbreath, de la Rionda, O’Mara, and West. Pick among this list to find the ones who probably disagree with your position. OK. Obviously the lawyers who must take a position based on their professional obligations hold opinions – at least public opinions – mandated by those positions. Mark O’Mara, no matter what he may feel in his heart, is not going to make any kind of public statement suggesting the state’s case is strong. Angela Corey, similarly, is not going to make any statement suggesting that the state’s case is weak. My question to you involves other lawyers – observers, people with the professional experience to judge the issues in play but no professional obligation to either side. Of those, do you know of any besides Leatherman who believe the state has a strong case? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4819 "2012-08-09T14:55:01Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I wonder what evidence they are planning to use to show that? All the defense’s evidence has presumably been released. It somewhat surprises me they’ve gone this way, as the evidence I’ve seen looks inconclusive as to whether Zimmerman started the fight. I still think it’s more probable that Martin started it, but that’s not enough in court. Which means he should be found not guilty at trial, but also that he won’t win the SYG hearing. My concern is that, if he loses the SYG hearing, there will be a presumption of guilt at the trial. Although perhaps that could be a tactic, to try to make a fair trial impossible so he can’t be convicted. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4820 "2012-08-09T15:46:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of those, do you know of any besides Leatherman who believe the state has a strong case? I’m friends with one in IRL, and I have come across some self-identified others on the internets. We’re not talking about Santa Claus here. It really takes some moronic hubris to believe that there are no other lawyers who disagree with your take on the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4821 "2012-08-09T16:11:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My concern is that, if he loses the SYG hearing, there will be a presumption of guilt at the trial. Although perhaps that could be a tactic, to try to make a fair trial impossible so he can’t be convicted. You’re wrong about this presumption. If he loses a SYG trial, that can’t be taken as evidence against his innocence. This is what I was trying to get through to you before: if Zimmerman is a credible witness, he risks very little by having an immunity hearing. It would actually be stupid of him not to go for it. But his problem is that he’s _not_ a credible witness. If he takes the stand in a SYG hearing, the State will have the opportunity to cross-examine him and then use what damning things that come out of his mouth in regular court. This would be just as risky as allowing Zimmerman to go on national TV to be gang banged by the prosecution team without his lawyer present. This is why I’m wondering what evidence the defense could possibly have to make the risks of a SYG hearing worth it to them. Given the inconsistencies, improbabilities, and contradictions in his statement(s), plus the whole lying about the passport and finances to the court thing, the defense would need some strong evidence to offset Zimmerman’s credibility issues if it has any chance of winning. But no such evidence has come to light in discovery. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4822 "2012-08-09T16:14:17Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m friends with one in IRL, and I have come across some self-identified others on the internets. We’re not talking about Santa Claus here. It really takes some moronic hubris to believe that there are no other lawyers who disagree with your take on the evidence. Well, I’m primarily interested in reading the detailed analysis they put forth. The flrst exemplar you offered, Leatherman, reached his opinion before the discovery evidence came to light, so his writing doesn’t really lay out the reasons under Florida law he’s reached his view. I’m hoping you can can name another, and that person will have made a more detailed explanation of his or her opinion. I can’t help noting, though, that while you have inveighed at length against my hubris, you haven’t actually named any other criminal practice lawyers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=240) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=242)