# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 245
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4883 "2012-08-11T15:41:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The bigger question is why should we not take Zimmerman at his word when he told the dispatcher he was following Martin, and not only that, but somehow spin this to mean he was actually looking for a street sign despite him never saying that’s what he was doing while on the call. Even in GZ re-enactment, he points out non-sequentially that he had been following TM, iirc. Once he is across the block he has an “oh yeah” moment and reveals the bit about following TM. But, to the point, I think the actually assertion is that he WAS following TM but then he stopped following TM after the call taker revealed that the PD did not need GZ to follow TM. IIRC, according to GZ re-enactment, he continued looking for TM and continued walking in the direction where he had seen TM go. > [@enomaj](#): > > **PatriotX** , GZ would have believe that he needed to go in the same direction as Trayvon in order to get an address from the street he knew the name of. I’m not buying it because: I don’t buy the idea that he went to look for a street sign where there was no intersection. It strikes me as hinky _and_ hokey. > [@enomaj](#): > > -GZ patroled his neighborhood in his car with his lights off. That’s some serious dedication for a volunteer. And a stupid way to drive at night, imho. But that’s neither here nor there. > [@enomaj](#): > > -TTL is the entrance he uses everyday. He claims know everyone that lives there but can’t remember TTL. Given that no matter how he entered or left the complex he would have come to an intersection with that street where the street sign was, I find it unlikely as well. But I have had worse brain farts. I find it less believable that he decided to go to where there was no intersection to find a street sign. > [@enomaj](#): > > -He tells the operator to have the police call him back implying that he won’t be at the mailboxes or his truck. That is markedly different than giving them an address from the east side of the block. > [@enomaj](#): > > Zimmerman directions to his truck are only clear if you know what the streets look like. He botches turn left with TTL curves left. Idk, it seems to have been good enough to me. He says when the turn comes, iirc. So it would rule out turning left on RVC. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4884 "2012-08-11T15:42:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He was doing both. There is nothing the prosecution can spin this into. They don’t need to spin it into anything. It’s already stupid and unbelievable on its face that GZ thought he could find a street sign where there was no intersection. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4885 "2012-08-11T15:48:44Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Perhaps someone can explain what the _significant_ differences between travelling in the same direction after someone while looking for that someone and “following” that someone. > > :shrug: To start with you’ve mis-framed the distinction as to what happened. Martin had disappeared around the corner. Per Zimmerman’s account and the evidence at hand he never left the sidewalk. So it’s not a function of continuing in the direction Martin took which is what you’re inferring. His stated purpose for traveling straight was originally to get an address number. It would have given the police the ability to navigate to a specific location. He was clearly struggling on the phone to give good directions. He tried to correct his earlier statement about turning left instead of just saying the ROAD curves to the left. Secondly, it was just common sense to continue to look for Martin. He could do that safely without confrontation from the sidewalk since there is no indication that he saw him while on the phone call. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4886 "2012-08-11T15:52:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Secondly, it was just common sense to continue to look for Martin. Only if you are armed with a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4887 "2012-08-11T15:54:03Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Only if you are armed with a gun. why? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4888 "2012-08-11T15:55:58Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > They don’t need to spin it into anything. > It’s already stupid and unbelievable on its face that GZ thought he could find a street sign where there was no intersection. He wasn’t looking for a street sign when he walked across the top of the T. He was looking for the address number of the house on the street the sidewalk intersects with. He already knew the name of that street because he lived on it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4889 "2012-08-11T15:57:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > why? Because he already described Martin as suspicious, with something in his waistband. It is not common sense to follow someone you suspect may be armed and with criminal intent, unless you are armed yourself, and only if you are spoiling for a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4890 "2012-08-11T15:58:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because he already described Martin as suspicious, with something in his waistband. It is not common sense to follow someone you suspect may be armed and with criminal intent, unless you are armed yourself, and only if you are spoiling for a fight. suspicious is not dangerous. He described him as messed up and on something. There is also no indication that he sought direct confrontation or he would have done so at his vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4891 "2012-08-11T15:59:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > suspicious is not dangerous. He described him as messed up and on something. I didn’t say dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4892 "2012-08-11T16:01:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I didn’t say dangerous. you inferred Martin was dangerous. There is no indication that Zimmerman thought he was armed or that he intended to confront him. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4893 "2012-08-11T16:05:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > you inferred Martin was dangerous. There is no indication that Zimmerman thought he was armed or that he intended to confront him. I _ **inferred** _ nothing. Zimmerman _ **implied** _ he was armed and had criminal intent, yet he followed him anyway. That is not common sense, unless he intended to confront him with his own weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4894 "2012-08-11T16:10:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I _ **inferred** _ nothing. > > Zimmerman _ **implied** _ he was armed and had criminal intent, yet he followed him anyway. That is not common sense, unless he intended to confront him with his own weapon. yes, you inferred martin was armed. Zimmerman didn’t say this. That’s your speculation. And no, he didn’t follow him. The evidence shows he limited his travel to the sidewalk. And no, he didn’t intend to shoot Martin or he would have had his gun drawn instead of his keys. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4895 "2012-08-11T16:12:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes, you inferred martin was armed. Zimmerman didn’t say this. That’s your speculation. > > And no, he didn’t follow him. The evidence shows he limited his travel to the sidewalk. > > And no, he didn’t intend to shoot Martin or he would have had his gun drawn instead of his keys. He thought he was armed. He followed him. He intended to confront him. He shot him. Common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4896 "2012-08-11T16:22:08Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > He thought he was armed. per your imagination of what he thought. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > He followed him. No he didn’t unless you’re prepared to say Martin was on the sidewalk the whole time. He complied with a request from the Dispatcher. The most you can say based on the evidence is that he tried to keep him in sight and after losing sight of him he still didn’t venture off the sidewalk. That’s what the evidence shows. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > He intended to confront him. He didn’t confront him when Martin was by his car and he never left the sidewalk. So again, your imagination without evidence. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > He shot him. After Martin beat him for a significant amount of time with no signs of help from anyone. Absolutely. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Common sense. your imagination, which is not admissible in court. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4897 "2012-08-11T16:25:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s what the evidence shows. No, that’s what you inferred. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4898 "2012-08-11T16:30:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No, that’s what you inferred. The evidence of his keys on the sidewalk backs up his statement of what happened. It’s physical evidence. there is no indication he left the sidewalk to look for Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4899 "2012-08-11T16:32:32Z")
His keys on the sidewalk are evidence of his keys on the sidewalk. Any other conclusion is speculation, and yours has no more merit than mine. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4900 "2012-08-11T16:37:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > To start with you’ve mis-framed the distinction as to what happened. Martin had disappeared around the corner. Per Zimmerman’s account and the evidence at hand he never left the sidewalk. So it’s not a function of continuing in the direction Martin took which is what you’re inferring. So because he could no longer see TM and was only looking to see if he could find TM, it doesn’t count as following? > [@Magiver](#): > > Secondly, it was just common sense to continue to look for Martin. He could do that safely without confrontation from the sidewalk since there is no indication that he saw him while on the phone call. I am not sure if the results after the fact, that he did not ever end up seeing TM again while GZ was on the phone, is an effective way to justify the decision making process before hand. > [@Magiver](#): > > He wasn’t looking for a street sign when he walked across the top of the T. He was looking for the address number of the house on the street the sidewalk intersects with. He already knew the name of that street because he lived on it. That may be true, but doesn’t actually address the fact that GZ told us he got out of his vehicle and walked to where there was no intersection to find a street sign. GZ tells us that it wasn’t until after he failed to find a street sign where there was no intersection that he set about to get an address for where he was not to give to the PD. I feel I should also mention that once GZ was across the block where he could’ve gotten the address he says he sought, he instead gave directions to his truck. So, there doesn’t seem to be any indication in the NEN call that GZ was going after an address to tell the PD where he was not. The NEN call instead indicates that he was thinking about meeting the PD at his vehicle at that point in the call. ymmv. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4901 "2012-08-11T16:39:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And no, he didn’t follow him. The evidence shows he limited his travel to the sidewalk. GZ says he was following TM. Doesn’t that count as evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4902 "2012-08-11T16:40:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > His keys on the sidewalk are evidence of his keys on the sidewalk. Any other conclusion is speculation, and yours has no more merit than mine. The keys correspond to his account of what happened. If they were found by Martin’s house or some other location then that would be a contradiction to his account. While the keys do not prove he was there the entire time they are an indication of where the physical confrontation began which places Zimmerman there at that time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=244) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=246)