# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 246
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4903 "2012-08-11T16:40:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The evidence of his keys on the sidewalk backs up his statement of what happened. It’s physical evidence. there is no indication he left the sidewalk to look for Martin. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > His keys on the sidewalk are evidence of his keys on the sidewalk. Any other conclusion is speculation, and yours has no more merit than mine. Imho, the keys on the sidewalk are an indication that GZ went back to his truck and got the keys after he exited his vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4904 "2012-08-11T16:41:21Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > His keys on the sidewalk are evidence of his keys on the sidewalk. Any other conclusion is speculation, and yours has no more merit than mine. The keys correspond to his account of what happened. If they were found by Martin’s house or some other location then that would be a contradiction to his account. While the keys do not prove he was there the entire time they are an indication of where the physical confrontation began which places Zimmerman there at that time. The State has to prove otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4905 "2012-08-11T16:44:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > While the keys do not prove he was there the entire time they are an indication of where the physical confrontation began which places Zimmerman there at that time. This presumes that the keys were dropped as a result of the confrontation, a conclusion that exists only in your imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4906 "2012-08-11T16:55:05Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > So because he could no longer see TM and was only looking to see if he could find TM, it doesn’t count as following? > > I am not sure if the results after the fact, that he did not ever end up seeing TM again while GZ was on the phone, is an effective way to justify the decision making process before hand. > > That may be true, but doesn’t actually address the fact that GZ told us he got out of his vehicle and walked to where there was no intersection to find a street sign. > GZ tells us that it wasn’t until after he failed to find a street sign where there was no intersection that he set about to get an address for where he was not to give to the PD. > I feel I should also mention that once GZ was across the block where he could’ve gotten the address he says he sought, he instead gave directions to his truck. So, there doesn’t seem to be any indication in the NEN call that GZ was going after an address to tell the PD where he was not. The NEN call instead indicates that he was thinking about meeting the PD at his vehicle at that point in the call. ymmv. I’ve got to go right now but this entire line of argument is legally pointless in court. He clearly called the police on a suspicious person, he clearly tried to keep him in sight by car and on foot. There is no evidence that he tried to confront Martin. He complied with the suggestion from the dispatcher not to follow Martin. The evidence outside of Zimmerman’s testimony of who initiated contact is that of Martin’s girlfriend and in her version Martin confronts Zimmerman. So up to the initial contact made by Martin Zimmerman did everything he should have done and was legally entitled to do. There is no indication from the conversation as related by Zimmerman or Dee Dee that justified Martin’s actions. He died because he was beating someone and there were no signs it would stop or that anyone would intervene and stop him. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4907 "2012-08-11T16:56:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This presumes that the keys were dropped as a result of the confrontation, a conclusion that exists only in your imagination. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4908 "2012-08-11T16:58:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > :rolleyes: What’s the matter, cat got your tongue? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4909 "2012-08-11T17:02:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What’s the matter, cat got your tongue? no, it’s just the likelihood of someone dropping an item in their hand when struck is pretty high. You’re trying to use my observation of your imagination of what Zimmerman thought as the same argument against physical evidence. I didn’t imagine the keys fell where they fell. They are located where Zimmerman said he was struck. His testimony is evidence and the location of the keys backs up that evidence. It’s unlikely that he lost his keys in your imagined search for Martin and their unknown location just happens to match up with his account. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4910 "2012-08-11T17:08:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > … this entire line of argument is legally pointless in court. umm so? It doesn’t seem to change the details of the argument at hand. If you’re not enjoying yourself, do something else. If you only want to debate about things which are not “legally pointless” you’re free to abstain from any discussion you choose, afaik. I just was responding to your posts, iirc. > [@Magiver](#): > > He … him. Much of that is based on GZ’s various accounts. The only problem with that is that his accounts don’t seem credible. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4911 "2012-08-11T20:14:03Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Yes. A ‘lot of people think’ is my rebuttal.She thinks what Zimmerman said is true. A lot of other people don’t. > > We hear Zimmerman 's labored breath and wind noise for about 15 secs. after he says OK. > > My objection is that she spun a bullshit story: Trayvon spoke first therefore he was the aggressor. And I’ve already mentioned Susan Simpson but she doesn’t post as often as Jeralyn. Susan Simpson thinks Zimmerman’s gonna have some problems if he gets on the stand. Whether SS is a more authoritative commentator, I don’t know. You are saying it is a bullshit scenario even though is is actually consistent with the physical evidence. Is you definition of bullshit anything you don’t agree with? Maybe you should become more familar with what Susan Simpson has written: > [@](#): > > Susan Simpson > on July 17, 2012 at 10:34 am said: > Ricky, the legal side of the case is only one aspect of the discussion. I have no disagreement with you on the fact that this will not be an easy case to prosecute — it is entirely possible that Zimmerman will be acquitted. That sounds to me like she is actually on the weak case side, even though she thinks Zimmerman is guilty. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4912 "2012-08-11T20:46:48Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Anyone can get one of those. That’s what released to the public means. > If anyone has the gumption to request one and pay the small fees, they can have one of their own. I just mention that because it demonstrates a much stronger interest in the case than other bloggers. It doesn’t actually give her access to any data that isn’t available to the media. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4913 "2012-08-11T20:48:35Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > I find it less believable that he decided to go to where there was no intersection to find a street sign. I don’t understand this part. He remembered the name of the eastern street, so was apparently trying to get a house address. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4914 "2012-08-11T21:19:54Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This presumes that the keys were dropped as a result of the confrontation, a conclusion that exists only in your imagination. Your ignoring the fact that Zimmerman’s only working flashlight was on the keychain. A person might drop his keys at night and not notice until he got back to his car, but it is illogical that he would drop his flashlight, when he is actually using it and not pick it up. The flashlight was on when the police got there. That kind of eliminates the drop the keys before the confrontation scenario. The witnesses on the scene after the shooting tend to eliminate a post confrontation drop also. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4915 "2012-08-11T22:07:22Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > I don’t understand this part. He remembered the name of the eastern street, so was apparently trying to get a house address. And yet funny enough, he never told the dispatcher what that house address was. He apparently hiked all the way over there for absolutely no reason. And this makes sense to you. Right. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4916 "2012-08-11T22:14:37Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You are saying it is a bullshit scenario even though is is actually consistent with the physical evidence. Is you definition of bullshit anything you don’t agree with? > > Maybe you should become more familar with what Susan Simpson has written: > > That sounds to me like she is actually on the weak case side, even though she thinks Zimmerman is guilty. What evidence besides Zimmerman’s say-so indicates that Trayvon was the aggressor? It’s not illegal to ask someone why they’re following you. Plus your quote is the same one that emeraldia posted a page or two ago. Not easy =/= weak. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4917 "2012-08-11T23:30:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And yet funny enough, he never told the dispatcher what that house address was. That is a separate matter from saying that he was looking for a street sign. My guess is that he intended to give that address to the police when they called him. Either that or his light wasn’t bright enough to see any. Or maybe he just changed his mind. Could be a number of things. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4918 "2012-08-11T23:32:06Z")
> **[Zimmerman: Once Upon a Midnight Dreary While I Pondered Weak and Weary](https://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/zimmerman-once-upon-a-midnight-dreary-while-i-pondered-weak-and-weary/)** > > Much of the background noise during the NEN call is unintelligible, but I heard one statement clearly. “My keys are in the truck.” George Zimmerman was out of his truck when he said thi… The guy is going off the deep-end now based on his last two posts. He has quite the little hate-group over there. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4919 "2012-08-12T00:10:58Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > That is a separate matter from saying that he was looking for a street sign. My guess is that he intended to give that address to the police when they called him. Either that or his light wasn’t bright enough to see any. Or maybe he just changed his mind. Could be a number of things. Just a hunch, but the more likely thing is that he was lying when he said that’s what he was doing. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4920 "2012-08-12T00:24:51Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > What evidence besides Zimmerman’s say-so indicates that Trayvon was the aggressor? It’s not illegal to ask someone why they’re following you. > > Plus your quote is the same one that emeraldia posted a page or two ago. Not easy =/= weak. I am sure **not easy != strong**. Zimmerman’s injuries are evidence. The prosecution actually has to prove that Zimmerman initiated the assault without leaving a mark on Martin. The defense doesn’t need proof. Based on the current evidence, I don’t think the defense can win the SYG hearing, but the trial is looks very favorable to the defense. Interestingly enough, some local attorneys, that have actually tried SYG hearings, think Zimmerman has a pretty good shot at a SYG hearing. I don’t see it with Lester presiding. [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-09/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-20120809\_1\_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-09/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-20120809_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara) Another interesting point. " > [@](#): > > He was in a place where he had a right to be. He wasn’t violating any laws. He was attacked. There’s no other witness to contradict his testimony," Buonauro said. > > That last point — that no other witness saw the entire encounter — is key, according to experts. An Orlando Sentinel review of Central Florida “stand your ground” cases found that suspects were far more likely to be exonerated if they were the lone surviving witness. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4921 "2012-08-12T01:21:09Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > I don’t understand this part. He remembered the name of the eastern street, so was apparently trying to get a house address. In his re-enactment he says he thought to look for a street sign so he got out of the vehicle but couldn’t find a street sign, (no shit?), and _then_ decided to get an address of where he wouldn’t be and wasn’t parked because there were no addresses on the backs of the buildings to his north. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4922 "2012-08-12T01:22:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And yet funny enough, he never told the dispatcher what that house address was. He apparently hiked all the way over there for absolutely no reason. And this makes sense to you. Right. Afaict, he “hiked all the way over there” and then gave directions to his truck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=245) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=247)