# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 250
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4983 "2012-08-13T01:15:14Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > I can’t think of a plausible scenario that would be within the realm of any likelihood. > > You have a second problem anyway- multiple witnesses describe the altercation beginning in the north and moving southward. Was Zimmerman throwing his voice (and Martin’s voice, too) in order to simulate this effect, or did he have help from the guy who planted the keys and flashlight? I don’t know. The state has not released all it’s evidence yet. The phone records and text messages may provide some possible insight into these questions. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4984 "2012-08-13T01:22:29Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > There you go with that Trayvon spoke first so he attacked Zimmerman canard. One does not follow from the other. It does not _necessarily_ follow that Trayvon _attacked_ first. You said Zimmerman wasn’t waiting for the police. My point was that there is no evidence he initiated a confrontation with Trayvon, only the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4985 "2012-08-13T01:59:44Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > There you go with that Trayvon spoke first so he attacked Zimmerman canard. One does not follow from the other. There is little doubt that Trayvon brutally assaulted Zimmerman. All the evidence shows that Martin engaged Zimmerman first in conversation. Zimmerman’s version of the conversation may or may not be accurate but it aligns with Martin’s state of mind behind the beating. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4986 "2012-08-13T02:14:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is little doubt that Trayvon brutally assaulted Zimmerman. Not according to the EMT report. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4987 "2012-08-13T02:28:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Not according to the EMT report. the EMT’s didn’t X-ray him or provide the diagnostic services of an actual doctor. Their lack of skill and equipment will be weighed against a proper diagnosis. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4988 "2012-08-13T03:36:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > he was trying to give directions to the police at the same time he was looking for Martin. He said he was doing something other than that, iirc. I think he said he was getting out to look for street sign where there was no intersection. You find that perfectly legit. That’s your call. > [@Magiver](#): > > What is so difficult to understand about this? seriously? That’s what I keep wondering. You seem to not get what I am saying even though I think I am speaking simply and clearly. :shrug: > [@Magiver](#): > > Was he looking for a street name? If you actually wanted to see a street sign, would you look at an intersection for a street sign or would you look where there is not an intersection? Just you personally. What would be your preference between those two choices? Why is that? > [@Magiver](#): > > He doesn’t see a sign… Another “No shit, Sherlock,” moment for me here. If you actually wanted to see a street sign, would you look at an intersection for a street sign or would you look where there is not an intersection? Just you personally. What would be your preference between those two choices? Why is that? > [@Magiver](#): > > You’re arguing over a detail that consists of panning the street while he runs/jogs towards the back of the houses. If that is what you think, then you’re still not getting close to the point. I am not sure I can do any better of a job explaining than I have already. We can’t go further in this line until we can get past this first part I don’t suppose. You find it credible that he would look for a street sign where there is no intersection. So be it. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4989 "2012-08-13T07:43:06Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Like many of the “contradictions” people point out, this whole thing is semantics. And phrases like “following him” and “he ran” have _multiple_ meanings and can be used in different contexts. Human beings generally speak with very little precision. Words, language, and communication is a very sloppy, sloppy business. You can’t be serious. Was Trayvon running away? Was his walking fast? Was he skipping? Words have very precise meanings. How can you say for certain what occured when Zimmerman has described Martin as all of the above? What’s slightly frustrating is how the peanut gallery cherry picks what part of Zimmerman’s story to exclude, what to keep, and what to dismiss as “semantics”. Also, what about Zimmerman’s inability to complete his 60 credit Associate Degree program despite failing multiple classes and being placed on academic probation. Do you think he has a learning disability or low IQ? Do you think his low IQ may correlate with a propensity for manipulation, lying, or even violence? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4990 "2012-08-13T08:18:20Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > You can’t be serious. Was Trayvon running away? Was his walking fast? Was he skipping? Words have very precise meanings. No, quite the opposite. Words and phrases are quite ambiguous, and have _many_ possible meanings. The word “run”, for example, pulls up 61 definitions on Wordweb. > [@](#): > > How can you say for certain what occured when Zimmerman has described Martin as all of the above? I can’t say for certain what occurred because I wasn’t there. My own interpretation of what he has said is that Martin bounded off out of sight which Zimmerman interpreted as him leaving the vicinity. > [@](#): > > What’s slightly frustrating is how the peanut gallery cherry picks what part of Zimmerman’s story to exclude, what to keep, and what to dismiss as “semantics”. I consider the peanut gallery to be the ones _nit_ picking his account. They are in need of mountains, but all they have is molehills. So I suppose their hyper-magnification of relatively minor things is to be expected. > [@](#): > > Also, what about Zimmerman’s inability to complete his 60 credit Associate Degree program despite failing multiple classes and being placed on academic probation. Do you think he has a learning disability or low IQ? Do you think his low IQ may correlate with a propensity for manipulation, lying, or even violence? I think his academic problems are yet another thing that is completely irrelevant to whether he acted in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4991 "2012-08-13T09:40:29Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > If that is what you think, then you’re still not getting close to the point. > > I am not sure I can do any better of a job explaining than I have already. > > We can’t go further in this line until we can get past this first part I don’t suppose. > You find it credible that he would look for a street sign where there is no intersection. So be it. There’s nothing to get passed. You’re arguing a point that doesn’t exist. So you don’t believe he looked around for a street sign. BFD. It has no bearing on anything whatsoever unless you’re trying to prove he wasn’t looking for Martin which he was. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4992 "2012-08-13T10:18:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > All the debris accounted for in Zimmerman’s narrative (his inoperative flashlight) was found near Martin’s dead body. It is possible that the key and mini flashlight could have been left behind by someone other than Zimmerman. That is not outside the realm of possibility, given how unsecure the crime scene was. Well, that’s good, because Zimmerman can be convicted of second degree murder, as long as we can think of some scenario that makes him guilty, no matter how unlikely it is. That IS the standard, and let’s hear no more about this crazy “beyond a reasonable doubt” business, eh? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4993 "2012-08-13T12:26:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There’s nothing to get passed. You’re arguing a point that doesn’t exist. So you don’t believe he looked around for a street sign. BFD. It has no bearing on anything whatsoever unless you’re trying to prove he wasn’t looking for Martin which he was. You’re still not getting it. It’s a lie. It’s bullshit. It’s not that he didn’t look for it that’s significant. It’s that he told us he did look for it that’s significant. Another lie in the same set is that he crossed the street to retrieve an address. These are two of the easy examples of GZ lying. It’s quite possible to pretend that GZ lying is insignificant. But showing that GZ lied means that it’s no longer reasonable to accept his word as being credible evidence. It undercuts the reliability of his entire account, imho. imho anyway. For some the mileage may vary. So the next question is to sort out where the lying begins and where it ends if possible. You can say, “Oh he ‘embellished’ or ‘played up’” or w/e other word or phrases emeraldia has used. But what it comes down to is that he is mis-reprepresenting the facts by telling us things which are not true in an attempt to deceive. This can be hand-waved away quite easily–just lift the hand and wave. But it really doesn’t change the fact that GZ is lying in his account. Imho, that renders his entire account worthless where ever it’s not corroborated by independent evidence. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4994 "2012-08-13T12:39:47Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > No, quite the opposite. Words and phrases are quite ambiguous, and have many possible meanings. The word “run”, for example, pulls up 61 definitions on Wordweb. No wonder GZ couldn’t tell Serino how Trayvon ran. But I think I have it narrowed down to these two. > [@](#): > > Move fast by using one’s feet, with one foot off the ground at any given time > “Don’t run–you’ll be out of breath” > > Flee; take to one’s heels; cut and run > “If you see this man, run!”; ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4995 "2012-08-13T12:57:05Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > There you go with that Trayvon spoke first so he attacked Zimmerman canard. One does not follow from the other. Martin attacked Zimmerman, because Zimmerman had the injuries and Martin had none. If you can **prove** Zimmerman assaulted Martin without any injuries to Martin, then present your evidence, otherwise you are just engaged in hand waving. The defense can wave their hands but the prosecution must actually prove things. Every other part of the discussion is irrelevant until you can prove that one point. Both Zimmerman and Martin had a legal right to be where they were. If you can’t prove that Zimmerman initiated the assault, then he be acquitted on the murder charge. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4996 "2012-08-13T13:07:41Z")
That just proves Zimmerman lost the fight. Plus there don’t need to be any injuries to Trayvon for an assault. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4997 "2012-08-13T13:17:56Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Plus there don’t need to be any injuries to Trayvon for an assault. You need some kind of evidence that Zimmerman assaulted Martin. There is none. You do have evidence that Martin assaulted Zimmerman - Zimmerman’s injuries, the wetness on the back of Zimmerman’s shirt, the witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. You have no evidence that Zimmerman assaulted Martin. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4998 "2012-08-13T14:12:25Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > But it really doesn’t change the fact that GZ is lying in his account. Imho, that renders his entire account worthless where ever it’s not corroborated by independent evidence. Do you understand, though, that for a jury to find him guilty, they need positive evidence that certain things are true, not just a belief that Zimmerman is lying? In other words, even if the jury says to itself, “We don’t trust Zimmerman’s word about anything,” they still cannot conclude, “…and therefore we’ll find that he didn’t have a case for self-defense.” The case for self-defense must be DISproved beyond a reasonable doubt. Finding Zimmerman has lied means they don’t believe his story, but on what evidence could they rely to actively DISprove self-defense? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/4999 "2012-08-13T14:48:07Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > No, quite the opposite. Words and phrases are quite ambiguous, and have _many_ possible meanings. The word “run”, for example, pulls up 61 definitions on Wordweb. > > I can’t say for certain what occurred because I wasn’t there. My own interpretation of what he has said is that Martin bounded off out of sight which Zimmerman interpreted as him leaving the vicinity. > I consider the peanut gallery to be the ones _nit_ picking his account. They are in need of mountains, but all they have is molehills. So I suppose their hyper-magnification of relatively minor things is to be expected. > I think his academic problems are yet another thing that is completely irrelevant to whether he acted in self-defense. First, of all, don’t Shodan me by cutting my post into digestible quotes. Leave it to the professionals. Thanks. Second, you’re playing semantics with words. Yes, words are ambiguous for a 10 year old one but when you’re a 28 year old man (who apparently is bilingual) one should have a grasp of the English language to construct an event with precision and accuracy. Third, I hope you were this forgiving when OJ gave his account of the murder of Nicole (Were you?). Lastly, Zimmerman’s IQ and academic problems are just as relevant to his character as Trayvon’s purported marijuana use and supposed school suspensions. Although you dodged the question, I’d like to try again: do you think low IQ was a factor in his academic performance and/or behavior that night or not? It’s a Yes or No question, or if you prefer German: Ja oder Nein frage, bitte. Do you think high IQ or individuals with high _g_ sexually assault their family members, resist arrest, beat their girlfriends, get on national TV to plead their legal case, and deceive the court? Because I’m going to show my hand here and be the bearer of bad news: the inability to complete 60 credits in any field at a community college suggest one is either lazy, incompetent, or stupid. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5000 "2012-08-13T15:20:26Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Third, I hope you were this forgiving when OJ gave his account of the murder of Nicole (Were you?). interesting example. OJ is widely regarded as being the person who killed Nicole, but the state was unable to amass sufficient evidence for the jury to find him guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5001 "2012-08-13T15:23:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In other words, even if the jury says to itself, “We don’t trust Zimmerman’s word about anything,” they still cannot conclude, “…and therefore we’ll find that he didn’t have a case for self-defense.” “This is excellent to know,” said the corpse of [Medgar Evers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medgar_Evers). “You’re telling me, I’m so happy the all-white jury got justice for me,” said the [corpse of Ed Johnson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_of_Ed_Johnson). A [child corpse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till) wanders in. “Me, too! I was killed and justice let my killers go free!” “Us too,” cried [five corpses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_Massacre) that shambled through the door. “We’re happy that juries can’t make erroneous conclusions to corroborate their own prejudices.” “The law and the justice system is fair and equitable,” shouted the corpse of a [svelte woman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_Liuzzo). [Nine corpses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottsboro_Boys) shamble into the crowded room with a groan. “Hear! Hear! Just as **Bricker** implies, juries limited on what a jury can they can use as evidence in their conclusion.” The moaning corpse of [Nicole Simpson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Simpson) dragged itself into the packed room. “If the glove doesn’t fit, you must acquit.” Nicole’s head fell off her shoulders to hit the ground. “Amen,” said the head of Nicole Simpson. “God Bless America.” ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5002 "2012-08-13T15:24:29Z")
I’m not Emeraldia, but the poor focus of ADHD might account for his academic problems. I’ve known a number of people with ADHD, even with high IQs, they have to overstimulate themselves, drive up their blood pressure and heart rate to concentrate, which only works for a short period of time. Stimulant drugs can be a substitute. I knew a classmate who took the AFQT, along with the rest of the class, and to everyone’s surprise, since he was such a poor student, he got the highest score, from which you can get an Iq score from, slightly into the genius range, 145. His ADHD was trauma induced. He had touched a live wire at the age of 3, recovered, but has been afflicted with ADHD ever since. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=249) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=251)