# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 255
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5083 "2012-08-14T21:22:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Your statement is wrong, again as a matter of law. The prosecution must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman was not in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury. I respectfully disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5084 "2012-08-14T21:37:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I respectfully disagree. Ok. Would some caselaw from Florida that makes the same statement I did change your mind? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5085 "2012-08-14T21:37:49Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Unless it is technical, written communication such as that written by lawyers, scientists, etc., the exact opposite is generally true. A wise man once said, “Communication is a sloppy affair.” Oh wait, that was me. It’s still true. > I don’t remember listening to him give his account. But there is a big difference right off the bat- there was a lot of evidence against OJ, so it wasn’t necessary to pick apart what he said. > I prefer to determine what actually happened that night by evidence of what happened that night. “Character” is only useful for speculation on what someone might have done. I’d rather see direct evidence of what they actually did. (By the way, I don’t know how closely you’re following the case but his marijuana use is beyond the “purported” stage at this point. And his suspensions beyond the “supposed”.) > Ah, now that you’ve asked it in German I can understand. You’re right about being bilingual helping to communicate. To answer your question… > > I don’t know how intelligent George Zimmerman is. But A.D.D. is considered to be a learning disability, and it is often associated with poor academic performance among other things. Having said that, I have A.D.D., I had excellent grades, and I consider myself to be well above average in intelligence in many ways. But in certain other ways, I am a total f\*\*king idiot. > > My sense of direction is terrible, I often forget minute details (such as street names), where my car keys are, etc., and can be generally quite absent-minded. In verbal communication, I often answer before thinking, mix words up, and phrase things in an awkward way that _I_ understand, but that others may misinterpret. I think his A.D.D. (and his potentially low intelligence) is relevant in understanding certain aspects of this. But he either fired in self-defense or he didn’t. Dumb people have a right to self-defense, too. > > I don’t believe he sexually assaulted his family member, he pushed a guy wearing plain clothes who appeared to be attacking his friend, he slapped a girlfriend in retaliation for her slapping him first, and his attorney was involved in both of the latter two decisions, in my opinion. > Or that he has A.D.D. or had other things going on at the time. Of course, it’s not relevant to anything. But if you wish to consider academic standing to be important, what bearing does it have for Trayvon? > > On his third suspension from school, he might have been lucky to even finish high school at the rate he was going. \*\* His school records have been sealed by Crump, \*\*but I have the feeling he wasn’t going to be an aviation engineer any time soon. Zimmerman may be stupid, but Trayvon is stupider. So to whatever degree stupidity is relevant in what happened, Zimmerman still comes out ahead. Bolding mine. That statement is untrue. Crump hasn’t sealed any school records. School records are sealed by default…everyone’s. You can’t look at mine, and I can’t look at yours. School records are confidential and can only be released in special circumstances (such as when the student or the parents of a minor student sign a release so that the transcript can be sent to the admissions office of a college). ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5086 "2012-08-14T21:43:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That Martin was beating up Zimmerman is not a presupposition. It is a conclusion based on the evidence.Because of the evidence he has available to show that Martin was violently attacking him. There is a witness who says she saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. There was wetness on the back of Zimmerman’s shirt, indicating that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground. Zimmerman has a broken nose and black eyes, indicating that he was punched. \*\*There is a scrape on Martin’s knuckle that indicates that he punched someone. > \*\* > The only thing about SYG in this case is the hearing where Zimmerman will have a chance to show he was acting in self-defense, and which will immunize him from prosecution and civil action if he prevails. The duty to retreat that SYG is supposed to remove doesn’t enter into this case - you can’t retreat if someone is sitting on top of you pounding your head on the ground, and therefore it makes no difference if Zimmerman should have run away or not. > > Regards, > Shodan Bolding mine. Again with the scrap on the knuckle. The knuckle is a specific part of a finger, and the scrap on Trayvon’s finger is not located on the knuckle. If the evidence supporting Zimmerman’s innocence is so strong, why do his supporters feel compelled to keep playing with the truth, moving a scratch a few millimeters to a knuckle and imagining a reality where school records are just there for public looking unless a lawyer does something? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5087 "2012-08-14T21:55:04Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Bolding mine. Again with the scrap on the knuckle. The knuckle is a specific part of a finger, and the scrap on Trayvon’s finger is not located on the knuckle. Who gives a flying fuck? The evidence shows that Martin punched Zimmerman, breaking his nose and blackening his eyes. And it’s “scrape”. If you want to pick meaningless nits, learn to spell first. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5088 "2012-08-14T22:07:33Z")
Hm, touched a nerve there, did I? Well, I will go on to pick a nit: his nose was probably, not definitely, broken. And Zimmerman’s eyes do not look black to me in the reenactment video. And to paraphrase another poster, if it’s fine and dandy for Zimmerman to punch a girlfriend who (Zimmerman said) punched him first, maybe when Trayvon punched Zimmerman, Zimmerman had grabbed him or swung and missed or reached for his gun. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5089 "2012-08-14T22:13:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But again, this is the lawyer using his interpretation of the alleged events to come up with Zimmerman’s motive, rather than going off what Zimmerman himself said. It’s almost as if O’Mara is glossing over the more immediate and brutal aspects of Zimmerman’s allegation and honing in on the one injury that is at least tenuously corroborated by Zimmerman’s medical report and yet so upstream from the actual shooting that its irrelevant. > > All the State has to do is convince the jury that its highly implausible a 200-lb, former bouncer would have been completely incapacitated by a 158-lbs teenager who lacked a history of violence. This is hardly impossible. > > Yes it is. Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 40 lbs. It’s unreasonable to assume he would have _couldn’t_ have escaped. > > Your logic is messed up. If he’s not granted SYG immunity, he can still be sued. Since this isn’t a SYG defense (as O’Mara has stated), then SYG immunity doesn’t apply, and therefore he won’t be immune from civil litigation. > > It makes no sense for O’Mara to declare this a non-SYG case but then go through the motions of having an SYG hearing. My understanding here is that if the defendant is pleading self-defense, it’s just like any other trial and the defendant is not obligated to testify. But in a SYG hearing, the defendant must testify. Is that true? If so, it sounds like O’Mara is looking for a way to keep Zimmerman off the stand, which I understand, because he seems to be a talkative loose cannon. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5090 "2012-08-14T22:20:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. > > Would some caselaw from Florida that makes the same statement I did change your mind? Frankly, it would not. We shall have to wait for the decision of the jury; if they conclude (in the absence of new evidence), that his fear was reasonable, I will gladly retract my assertion. Will you do the same if they find otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5091 "2012-08-14T23:21:00Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > My understanding here is that if the defendant is pleading self-defense, it’s just like any other trial and the defendant is not obligated to testify. But in a SYG hearing, the defendant must testify. Is that true? > > If so, it sounds like O’Mara is looking for a way to keep Zimmerman off the stand, which I understand, because he seems to be a talkative loose cannon. He still plans to have an SYG hearing, so this theory is unlikely. What it sounds like to me is that O’Mara is preemptively conceding the prosecution’s theory that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Provoking an attack disqualifies one from claiming SYG, but you can still argue self defense if you had no means to flee or defend yourself with non-lethal means. Good luck proving that, GZ. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5092 "2012-08-14T23:37:56Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > No they weren’t. Almost every witness noted numerous times how dark it was and how it was too dark to really see details of what was going on. It was light enough for someone (through a window) to make out two people fighting at a distance of thirty feet. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > GZ’s gun was black, in a black holster, and it was in an innerwaist band holster that was behind GZ near his right rear pocket. There’s not a snowball’s chance in hell someone could see it. there’s every chance that Martin saw this when Zimmerman’s shirt came up. Prove that it didn’t. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > And that’s even before we get into the ridiculous contortions that GZ would have to go through to a) use his right arm to pin Martin’s left arm, while b) simultaneously, with the same right arm, draw his gun and shoot Martin, while still pinning Martin’s arm. There’s nothing ridiculous about a struggle where someone wiggles and turns to avoid getting hit and a shirt rides up. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5093 "2012-08-14T23:54:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Frankly, it would not. We shall have to wait for the decision of the jury; if they conclude (in the absence of new evidence), that his fear was reasonable, I will gladly retract my assertion. Will you do the same if they find otherwise? No. Remember I’m talking about what’s required as a matter of law. If the jury hears no evidence and finds him guilty, AND on appeal the appellate court court upholds that verdict, THEN I will retract my assertion. In other words, the jury may decide something even without support in the record. That happens. The cure for that is a judge setting aside the verdict. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5094 "2012-08-14T23:56:07Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He still plans to have an SYG hearing, so this theory is unlikely. > > What it sounds like to me is that O’Mara is preemptively conceding the prosecution’s theory that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Provoking an attack disqualifies one from claiming SYG, but you can still argue self defense if you had no means to flee or defend yourself with non-lethal means. > > Good luck proving that, GZ. no being the aggressor does not disqualify you from claiming self defense under the SYG law. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5095 "2012-08-14T23:57:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Remember I’m talking about what’s required as a matter of law. If the jury hears no evidence and finds him guilty, AND on appeal the appellate court court upholds that verdict, THEN I will retract my assertion. No evidence? Stack the deck much? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5096 "2012-08-15T00:09:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Remember I’m talking about what’s required as a matter of law. If the jury hears no evidence and finds him guilty, AND on appeal the appellate court court upholds that verdict, THEN I will retract my assertion. > > In other words, the jury may decide something even without support in the record. That happens. The cure for that is a judge setting aside the verdict. or put another way, the Jury is not allowed to arbitrarily make that decision. It must be based on fact and not opinion. It’s the difference between a vigilante group that “just knows” the defendant is guilty and a proper trial. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5097 "2012-08-15T00:13:43Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No evidence? Stack the deck much? Evidence that Zimmerman wasn’t in fear for his life. It would take something like an email that stated he wasn’t in fear for his life. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5098 "2012-08-15T00:15:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > no being the aggressor does not disqualify you from claiming self defense under the SYG law. Yes, it does. If you provoked an attack, you are not allowed to _stand your ground_. You have a duty to retreat. This is some basic kindergarten shit, seriously. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5099 "2012-08-15T00:20:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It was light enough for someone (through a window) to make out two people fighting at a distance of thirty feet. > > there’s every chance that Martin saw this when Zimmerman’s shirt came up. > > Prove that it didn’t. > There’s nothing ridiculous about a struggle where someone wiggles and turns to avoid getting hit and a shirt rides up. Dude, this part of the story is ridiculous. Get a buddy to help you stage a reinactment. Straddle him so that you can get a good hold on his head for banging purposes and get his arms held tight with your legs. Okay? Now, can you actually see his _hips_? His _waist_? Forget the darkness–first, figure out what kind of jacked-up positioning you must arrange in order to get a sight line on his holster-area. Straddling him about mid-thigh? Twisted around with one leg raised? And, if you are now in a position where you can actually see this gun-holding area, your grip and center of gravity are in a position where the man on the bottom can more easily throw you off. In fact, in these circumstances, he’d probably find throwing you off easier than getting a grip on his gun. Of course, it’s far more likely that a man straddling another man in the dark would _feel_ a hip-holstered gun than that he would _see_ a hip-holstered gun. That’s a much more plausible story and I’d offer it to Zimmerman’s defense team for free, except that it ignores the far more ridiculous idea that a man who routinely carries a gun to the point where he wears it when he goes to Target would up and forget it on maybe the first time in his life when it would actually come in handy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5100 "2012-08-15T00:24:03Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yes, it does. If you provoked an attack, you are not allowed to _stand your ground_. You have a duty to retreat. This is some basic kindergarten shit, seriously. Again, you have no idea what SYG law is and what it covers. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5101 "2012-08-15T00:28:10Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Dude, this part of the story is ridiculous. Get a buddy to help you stage a reinactment. Straddle him so that you can get a good hold on his head for banging purposes and get his arms held tight with your legs. Okay? Now, can you actually see his _hips_? His _waist_? Forget the darkness–first, figure out what kind of jacked-up positioning you must arrange in order to get a sight line on his holster-area. Straddling him about mid-thigh? Twisted around with one leg raised? Duuuude. It was assuredly on ongoing struggle where Zimmerman was doing everything in his power to squirm out from under. The sight line is Zimmerman on his side as he’s twisting back and forth. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5102 "2012-08-15T00:33:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, you have no idea what SYG law is and what it covers. And you don’t know what the words “stand your ground” mean. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=254) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=256)