# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 256
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5103 "2012-08-15T00:33:36Z")
[Stand Your Ground Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law) > [@](#): > > \*\* > 776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: > > (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or > > (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: > > ``` > (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or > (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. > > ``` > > \*\* If Zimmerman is going to now admit to being the aggressor (not sure if that’s the newest angle…I haven’t been following the back-and-forth here very closely), he has to demonstrate the above. I don’t see how he possibly can do that using the physical evidence or his own statement. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5104 "2012-08-15T00:41:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Duuuude. It was assuredly on ongoing struggle where Zimmerman was doing everything in his power to squirm out from under. The sight line is Zimmerman on his side as he’s twisting back and forth. That still doesn’t make any spacial sense. Was Martin clinging to Zimmerman’s knees perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5105 "2012-08-15T00:48:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Evidence that Zimmerman wasn’t in fear for his life. It would take something like an email that stated he wasn’t in fear for his life. Sorry, you have been misinformed. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5106 "2012-08-15T01:01:58Z")
If you’ve got arms, why would you be using them to wiggle? Why wouldn’t your energy be directed to pushing the attacker off of you or at least covering your face? Isn’t that what most people do if they were defending themselves in attack? If his arms were under Martin’s legs all that time, then Martin would have had a hard time seeing that gun. He would have been too far up on the guy’s torso. If the arms were free and Zimmerman chose not to use them in battle (and his re-enactment doesn’t indicate that he did), then I don’t see how he can say he exhausted all reasonable means. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5107 "2012-08-15T01:05:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No evidence? Stack the deck much? Well, what I said initially was that the prosecution must disprove, beyond a reasonable doubt, the claim that Zimmerman was in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury. You responded: > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > They may prove this, but they don’t have to. The jury may decide Ziimeran’s claim of fear of serious bodily injury is simply not reasonable on its own merits. And I said that wasn’t true. Would it help if I said “No evidence, apart from Zimmerman’s testimony?” I don’t understand what your sticking point is. If there is other evidence, then the prosecution is proving their case. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5108 "2012-08-15T01:14:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Would it help if I said “No evidence, apart from Zimmerman’s testimony?” Since there will never be a trial where the prosecution presents no evidence, how can this question ever be answered? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5109 "2012-08-15T01:15:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Sorry, you have been misinformed. You haven’t listened to a thing Bricker said. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5110 "2012-08-15T01:34:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If the arms were free and Zimmerman chose not to use them in battle (and his re-enactment doesn’t indicate that he did), then I don’t see how he can say he exhausted all reasonable means. I said this at least once to you. You’ve never been in a real fight let alone one that has you pinned down. Suffice it to say, Zimmerman would be doing everything you described at some point. It isn’t a series of still shots for a photographer. It’s a grappling struggle for survival. The bottom line is that Martin got the better of him for a considerable amount of time. He beat Zimmerman’s face and smashed his head against the concrete. It doesn’t take much of a blow to the head with a solid object to generate fear for one’s life. You should be able to understand that if you can’t visualize what goes on in fight. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5111 "2012-08-15T01:43:06Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Since there will never be a trial where the prosecution presents no evidence, how can this question ever be answered? By identifying the evidence that specifically allowed the jury to reach the conclusion that they did. Of course the prosecution will present evidence that Martin was killed in Seminole County, in Florida. They won’t leave that to “something the jurors can figure out.” the prosecution will ask one of the police officers if the location of the crime was in Seminole County, in the state of Florida. The officer will (presumably) answer yes. So on appeal, the defense cannot claim that the prosecution failed to prove the crime happened in Seminole County, in the state of Florida, because the response from the state would be to point to that testimony. It’s part of the trial record, and the jury could rely on that testimony to find that the crime happened in Seminole County, state of Florida. In like manner, they will prove other elements: that Martin is dead, that Zimmerman killed Martin, and so on. Each of those elements will have a piece of evidence specifically adduced at trial. In the same way, they have to prove that Zimmerman did not have a reasonable fear of serious bodily injury. Just like those other elements, they need some evidence for that proposition. If they don’t produce that piece of evidence, the conviction cannot stand, as a matter of law. For example, if they had a text message from Zimmerman denying he was worried about Martin injuring him, that would do the trick nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5112 "2012-08-15T01:54:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In the same way, they have to prove that Zimmerman did not have a reasonable fear of serious bodily injury. Just like those other elements, they need some evidence for that proposition. Here is where I disagree. The “reasonable” standard is a state of mind, not an empirical fact. The jury looks at his injuries, listens to his story, and decides if his fear was reasonable. That’s it. There doesn’t have to be a smoking gun that says. “Ah HAH!! Your fear wasn’t reasonable!!” Yes, I am saying the jury decides based on the totality of the testimony, not on a single factoid that the prosecutor enters into evidence. The verdict will prove me right, and it will withstand appeal. If it doesn’t, then and only then will I retract my assertion. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5113 "2012-08-15T02:02:54Z")
**Magiver** , you will never be able to convince me that an able-bodied man would not try to use his hands and arms to defend himself in a life-and-death battle. Those screams last a pretty long time. Long enough to throw some punches, push, grab, do SOMETHING that would have left significant injury on Martin. While his head was getting bashed in, WHERE THE FUCK WHERE DUDE’S HANDS? Just flailing in the air like a newborn baby’s? That makes absolutely no sense. None. If the screams had lasted a couple of seconds, you may be able to convince me that this life-and-death battle was too short for natural instincts to kick in. But they didn’t last a couple of seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5114 "2012-08-15T02:37:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Magiver** , you will never be able to convince me that an able-bodied man would not try to use his hands and arms to defend himself in a life-and-death battle. He would absolutely try to use his hands and arms as described if he can. > [@monstro](#): > > Those screams last a pretty long time. Long enough to throw some punches, push, grab, do SOMETHING that would have left significant injury on Martin. While his head was getting bashed in, WHERE THE FUCK WHERE DUDE’S HANDS? Just flailing in the air like a newborn baby’s? That makes absolutely no sense. None. When someone is on top of you they have a huge huge advantage. What usually occurs is that the person on the bottom tries to fend off blows to the head and maneuver out from under. This is not easy to do. The person on top can pull back and sink his weight and full arm extension into each blow. It’s a substantial advantage. If the person on top can put his knees on the shoulder of the person on the bottom then the person on the bottom has to reach around his leg. There is no way to generate a good punch which at this point is usually secondary to warding off blows to the face. It’s an ugly position to be in. > [@monstro](#): > > If the screams had lasted a couple of seconds, you may be able to convince me that this life-and-death battle was too short for natural instincts to kick in. But they didn’t last a couple of seconds. I would say the length of time the screams went on and the injuries sustained point out that Martin got the better of Zimmerman. I don’t know what other conclusion you can reasonably come to. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5115 "2012-08-15T02:46:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Here is where I disagree. The “reasonable” standard is a state of mind, not an empirical fact. The jury looks at his injuries, listens to his story, and decides if his fear was reasonable. That’s it. There doesn’t have to be a smoking gun that says. “Ah HAH!! Your fear wasn’t reasonable!!” > > Yes, I am saying the jury decides based on the totality of the testimony, not on a single factoid that the prosecutor enters into evidence. > > The verdict will prove me right, and it will withstand appeal. If it doesn’t, then and only then will I retract my assertion. Well,this is IMHO. So you’re in the right place. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5116 "2012-08-15T02:48:30Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Here is where I disagree. The “reasonable” standard is a state of mind, not an empirical fact. The jury looks at his injuries, listens to his story, and decides if his fear was reasonable. That’s it. There doesn’t have to be a smoking gun that says. “Ah HAH!! Your fear wasn’t reasonable!!” > > Yes, I am saying the jury decides based on the totality of the testimony, not on a single factoid that the prosecutor enters into evidence. > > The verdict will prove me right, and it will withstand appeal. If it doesn’t, then and only then will I retract my assertion. What Bricker is trying to tell you is that the jury CAN’T convict without solid evidence to the contrary. It can’t be based on opinion. If the evidence is not presented, the judge will rule for appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5117 "2012-08-15T02:50:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What Bricker is trying to tell you is that the jury CAN’T convict without solid evidence to the contrary. It can’t be based on opinion. If the evidence is not presented, the judge will rule for appeal. And if the appeal is denied, will you return here and admit you were wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5118 "2012-08-15T03:04:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And if the appeal is denied, will you return here and admit you were wrong? Wow, you REAAAALLY don’t get what he’s saying at all. Bricker is telling you what is required by law. It’s not his opinion. It’s not an interpretation. This is what the jury is required to do by law. He offered to cite relevant Florida law but you couldn’t be bothered with it. There is no right or wrong here, just the law. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5119 "2012-08-15T03:22:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow, you REAAAALLY don’t get what he’s saying at all. Bricker is telling you what is required by law. It’s not his opinion. It’s not an interpretation. This is what the jury is required to do by law. He offered to cite relevant Florida law but you couldn’t be bothered with it. > > There is no right or wrong here, just the law. And the appeal will either be upheld or denied. Either way, it is the system at work. Will you retract your claim if the appeal is denied? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5120 "2012-08-15T03:31:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And the appeal will either be upheld or denied. Either way, it is the system at work. Will you retract your claim if the appeal is denied? sigh… no claims are being made. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5121 "2012-08-15T03:34:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If they don’t produce that piece of evidence, the conviction cannot stand, as a matter of law. For example, if they had a text message from Zimmerman denying he was worried about Martin injuring him, that would do the trick nicely. Actually a text message would be lousy evidence, unless the prosecution was able to get to the phone company to preserve the raw data and prove the message actually originated from Zimmerman’s phone. Usually the phone company only keeps SMS records for a short period of time. SMS Spoofing is relatively easy and common and even has legitimate uses. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS\_spoofing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_spoofing) SMS simply wasn’t designed with security in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5122 "2012-08-15T03:37:14Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Actually a text message would be lousy evidence, unless the prosecution was able to get to the phone company to preserve the raw data and prove the message actually originated from Zimmerman’s phone. Usually the phone company only keeps SMS records for a short period of time. > > SMS Spoofing is relatively easy and common and even has legitimate uses. > > [SMS spoofing - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_spoofing) > > SMS simply wasn’t designed with security in mind. That goes to the weight of the evidence. The jury is entitled, assuming proper foundation, to believe the evidence even if it’s possible to spoof it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=255) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=257)