# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 260
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5183 "2012-08-16T22:59:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you honestly think that someone who _couldn’t_ get away is ineligible for the latitude that SYG grants defendants who claim self defense? Because that is exactly what you’re saying when say SYG doesn’t apply. The only part of the law that the SYG legislation created that is directly related to the concept of “standing one’s ground” is the line “no duty to retreat”. O’Mara argues that Zimmerman wasn’t able to retreat anyway, so the “stand your ground” _part_ of the Stand Your Ground law will not necessarily be of any importance to them. Of course he is still eligible for all of the other benefits that SYG legislation provided, i.e., the immunity hearing. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5184 "2012-08-16T23:42:44Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Actually your premise is flawed. There will complications on photographs also. At the minimum there will testimony that the file wasn’t altered. There also might be expert witnesses and software to detect changes to the picture to see if has been altered. > > Amusing article on detecting photo retouching. > > [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2067474/Back-reality-Computer-program-shows-EXACTLY-images-magazine-photoshopped.html](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2067474/Back-reality-Computer-program-shows-EXACTLY-images-magazine-photoshopped.html) Zimmerman isn’t talking on the phone. If you look closely, theres someone dressed in blue in front of Zimmerman, who also got photographed. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5185 "2012-08-17T00:39:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Correct. And it accepted two. > > OK. In _Smallwood v. State_, 61 So. 3d 448 (Fl DCA 2011), text messages are admitted, but they were found on the phone. Your argument is that if a text message is taken from the cell provider, it can’t be admitted without some kind of audit? Actually Smallwood was about photos on the cell phone, not texts. > [@](#): > > So if I can find cases where that has happened, you’ll agree you were mistaken? Actually you need to find a **Florida** precedent, since SMS are handled differently from state to state, but I would suggest you wait until Zimmerman texts are released and see if there is any incriminating texts to argue about. O’Mara might be a liar, but I doubt that he is a stupid liar. BTW, I already looked at case where Dennis Abrahamsen was murdered by Logue and Andrews. They got the texts off Andrews blackberry. [http://seemydeath.com/murders/3182-dennis-scooter-abrahamsen-41-was-bludgeoned-and-stabbed-to-death-by-porn-star-amanda-logue-28-and-her-boyfriend-jason-andrews-27.html](http://seemydeath.com/murders/3182-dennis-scooter-abrahamsen-41-was-bludgeoned-and-stabbed-to-death-by-porn-star-amanda-logue-28-and-her-boyfriend-jason-andrews-27.html) ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5186 "2012-08-17T00:54:47Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Zimmerman isn’t talking on the phone. If you look closely, theres someone dressed in blue in front of Zimmerman, who also got photographed. Are you talking about this picture? > **[Redirect Notice](https://www.google.com/imgres?start=85&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1252&bih=525&tbm=isch&tbnid=i-8psL7pI00--M:&imgrefurl=http:%2F%2Fvictimsheartland.forumotion.com%2Ft5203p100-george-zimmerman-charged-with-2nd-degree-murder-in-the-death-of-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-medical-report-shows-injuries-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-trayvons-autopsy-report-shows-fatal-wound-and-injuries-to-his-knuckles&docid=mBUoSbwreXV0AM&imgurl=http:%2F%2Fi43.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff43%2F14%2F13%2F22%2F15%2Fht_geo10.jpg&w=531&h=410&ei=mZUtULq5McXt0gGW4oCwDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=905&vpy=184&dur=405&hovh=193&hovw=251&tx=186&ty=108&sig=106577047821779160916&page=7&tbnh=157&tbnw=205&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:85,i:34)** It really looks as if Zimmerman’s holding _something_ up to his right ear. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5187 "2012-08-17T04:41:20Z")
Read GZ’s attorneys’ “Petition for Writ of Prohibition” to disqualify Judge Lester. I think it should be granted, and that there is a pretty good chance it will be. Interested in people’s predictions. I say 60% chance it is granted, 40% it is denied. [http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/writ/petition\_for\_writ\_of\_prohibition.pdf](http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/writ/petition_for_writ_of_prohibition.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5188 "2012-08-17T08:02:26Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Actually Smallwood was about photos on the cell phone, not texts. True, but the decision includes an excellent summary of other case law that does involve text messages: > [@Smallwood court](#): > > Finley, the defendant was arrested following an under-cover controlled drug buy, and his cell phone was seized. Id. at 253-54. Officers searched the phone and discovered text messages that appeared to be related to narcotics use and trafficking, which the defendant confirmed during questioning. Id. at 254-55. . . . > > . > . > . > The Murphy court relied on United States v. Young, 278 Fed.Appx. 242, 245-46 (4th Cir.2008), in which officers arrested the defendant for drug-related crimes and discovered a cell phone on his person, and then searched the phone and copied down text messages found therein. The Young court found the “[p]rivacy rights in the phone are tempered by an arresting officer’s need to preserve evidence,” noting Robinson found the need for preservation of evidence was one of the primary reasons behind the warrant exception for searches incident to arrest. Id. at 245, 94 S.Ct. 467. The Young court found the officers’ search and seizure of the text messages was permissible because the officers “had no way of knowing whether the text messages would automatically delete themselves or be preserved.” Id. > . > . > . > Similarly, in United States v. Deans, 549 F.Supp.2d 1085, 1093-94 (D.Minn.2008), the court found a cell phone was a “container,” as contemplated by Belton, that could be searched incident to arrest. Thus, the court reasoned, “if a cell phone is lawfully seized, officers may also search any data electronically stored in the device.” Id. at 1094. The Deans court affirmed the denial of the defendant’s motion to suppress electronic data from his phone searched incident to his arrest for drug-related crimes. Id. > . > . > . > Also notable is the California supreme court’s recent decision in California v. Diaz, 51 Cal.4th 84, 119 Cal.Rptr.3d 105, 244 P.3d 501 (2011), in which the court affirmed the denial of a motion to suppress a text message found on the defendant’s phone. In Diaz, a detective witnessed the defendant participate in a controlled drug buy, arrested him, and seized his cell phone from his person. Id. at 502. Upon questioning at the station, the defendant denied any knowledge of the drug buy. Id. The officer then, approximately 90 minutes after the arrest, “looked at the cell phone’s text message folder and discovered a message” that was incriminating, at which point the defendant confessed. Id. > . > . > . > A Georgia appellate court also recently upheld the search of a cell phone found in a vehicle incident to arrest. Hawkins v. State, 307 Ga.App. 253, 704 S.E.2d 886 (2010). In Hawkins, an officer set up a drug buy through text messaging, and when he arrived at the prearranged location, he discovered the buyer, watched her entering data into her cell phone, and arrested her while she was sitting in her car. Id. at 888-89. The officer subsequently searched the car and found her cell phone in her purse, and searched the text messages on her phone. Id. My bad for not being clear on the purpose for bringing up Smallwood, but again, these cases all involve searches of the phone, as opposed to cell provider data, so your primary objection remains. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5189 "2012-08-17T10:32:04Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > The only part of the law that the SYG legislation created that is directly related to the concept of “standing one’s ground” is the line “no duty to retreat”. O’Mara argues that Zimmerman wasn’t able to retreat anyway, so the “stand your ground” _part_ of the Stand Your Ground law will not necessarily be of any importance to them. Of course he is still eligible for all of the other benefits that SYG legislation provided, i.e., the immunity hearing. The only benefit of SYG–separate and apart from “regular self defense”–is relieving the defense of the task of proving their client’s couldnt have retreated. That’s it. That’s all. If O’Mara wants to throw away that gimme, more power to him. His fan base obviously can’t see the stupid implications of this, as this thread makes clear. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5190 "2012-08-17T12:28:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > True, but that’s still _in reaction_ to the prosecution’s argument that Zimmerman should have retreated. The prosecution isn’t likely to argue that, unless they are complete idiots. Which I suppose is possible, but not likely. > [@](#): > > There is a difference between that, and leading out with the idea that it was impossible for Zimmerman to retreat and that is why he killed Martin. The defense doesn’t lead off - the prosecutors go first. And again, the defense is not going to open its case by arguing that Zimmerman had no duty to retreat. That argument is one that you are suggesting, because you want Zimmerman to be convicted. So you are hoping the defense botches it by presenting arguments as weak and mendacious as yours. > [@](#): > > The jury will then focus on that and start asking questions like “But Zimmerman outweighed the kid by 46 lbs…of course he could have retreated! The defense is asking us to believe the unbelievable. It must be legally relevant too, otherwise why are they arguing the point so much.” Let’s hope that [list=A][li]the jury is not composed of idiots like some, and [\*]the jury actually cares about the law, unlike some.[/list][/li] > [@](#): > > As long as you’re not backing down and letting your attacker kill you, you are standing your ground. Which is, legally, morally, and logically, complete horseshit. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5191 "2012-08-17T14:04:17Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Are you talking about this picture? > > [http://www.google.com/imgres?start=85&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1252&bih=525&tbm=isch&tbnid=i-8psL7pI00--M:&imgrefurl=http://victimsheartland.forumotion.com/t5203p100-george-zimmerman-charged-with-2nd-degree-murder-in-the-death-of-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-medical-report-shows-injuries-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-trayvons-autopsy-report-shows-fatal-wound-and-injuries-to-his-knuckles&docid=mBUoSbwreXV0AM&imgurl=http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/14/13/22/15/ht\_geo10.jpg&w=531&h=410&ei=mZUtULq5McXt0gGW4oCwDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=905&vpy=184&dur=405&hovh=193&hovw=251&tx=186&ty=108&sig=106577047821779160916&page=7&tbnh=157&tbnw=205&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:85,i:34](http://www.google.com/imgres?start=85&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1252&bih=525&tbm=isch&tbnid=i-8psL7pI00--M:&imgrefurl=http://victimsheartland.forumotion.com/t5203p100-george-zimmerman-charged-with-2nd-degree-murder-in-the-death-of-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-medical-report-shows-injuries-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-trayvons-autopsy-report-shows-fatal-wound-and-injuries-to-his-knuckles&docid=mBUoSbwreXV0AM&imgurl=http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/14/13/22/15/ht_geo10.jpg&w=531&h=410&ei=mZUtULq5McXt0gGW4oCwDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=905&vpy=184&dur=405&hovh=193&hovw=251&tx=186&ty=108&sig=106577047821779160916&page=7&tbnh=157&tbnw=205&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:85,i:34) > > It really looks as if Zimmerman’s holding _something_ up to his right ear. He has a red shirt on, the arm holding the phone is BLUE. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5192 "2012-08-17T14:28:49Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The only benefit of SYG–separate and apart from “regular self defense”–is relieving the defense of the task of proving their client’s couldnt have retreated. That’s it. That’s all. Are you talking about the pretrial hearing? At trial the burden of proof will be on the prosecution. Let’s just hope the prosecution has something up their sleeve that we haven’t seen that makes the whole issue moot. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5193 "2012-08-17T15:08:14Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > He has a red shirt on, the arm holding the phone is BLUE. It’s not a shirt, it’s a jacket. It’s not blue, it’s black. PLease examine this photo and see if the photo shows that it’s possible that the black sleeve of GZ’s jacket could be the sleeve which is around the arm which is holding the phone. [![](https://i.insider.com/4fb574d46bb3f72f0e000002) ](https://i.insider.com/4fb574d46bb3f72f0e000002) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5194 "2012-08-17T15:45:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > True, but the decision includes an excellent summary of other case law that does involve text messages: > > My bad for not being clear on the purpose for bringing up Smallwood, but again, these cases all involve searches of the phone, as opposed to cell provider data, so your primary objection remains. The most decision I can find is Glasco. [http://www.5dca.org/Opinions/Opin2012/061112/5D11-851.op.pdf](http://www.5dca.org/Opinions/Opin2012/061112/5D11-851.op.pdf) From the comments I read this appears to be the last word until the Florida Supreme Court rules. [http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/260922/483/Police-can-search-cell-phones-without-warrant](http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/260922/483/Police-can-search-cell-phones-without-warrant) I’m rather puzzled, since I’m not clear under what circumstances the police can demand your cell phone password. I read Zimmerman’s arrest report from April 11th and he did have a cell phone when he was arrested, but it wasn’t clear if they searched it or even kept it. His rental car and his other property was given to Zimmerman’s brother. (page 89-90 2nd discovery). ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5195 "2012-08-17T16:09:05Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Are you talking about the pretrial hearing? > At trial the burden of proof will be on the prosecution. At trial, the defense has to assert that Zimmerman was justified in using lethal force. That will necessitate them presenting Zimmerman’s theory for what happened. They need not prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, but it would be in their best interest to be as convincing as possible. And the idea that it was impossible for Zimmerman to retreat merely because a 158-lbs teenager was on top of him is not convincing. In fact, it’s so unconvincing, they’d be better off leaving that completely out of his narrative. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5196 "2012-08-17T16:14:56Z")
> [@ywtf](#): > > As long as you’re not backing down and letting your attacker kill you, you are standing your ground. > [@Shodan](#): > > Which is, legally, morally, and logically, complete horseshit. Your reaction is interesting. I would’ve assume you’d be in favor of the SYG law. Apparently you’re not, though. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5197 "2012-08-17T16:21:17Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > He has a red shirt on, the arm holding the phone is BLUE. Wanna know what else is weird? Look at his right ear. If you can find it. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5198 "2012-08-17T16:46:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Wanna know what else is weird? Look at his right ear. If you can find it. What about it? One ear sticks out farther than the other. What’s weird about that? Many people are not precisely symmetrical. Doesn’t strike me as weird. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5199 "2012-08-17T17:02:35Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I’m rather puzzled, since I’m not clear under what circumstances the police can demand your cell phone password. Assuming the phone was locked, police can’t demand it at all. (Well… they can act like they’re demanding it, but you have the right to remain silent and thereby refuse.) However, a judge or grand jury can order you to give up your phone’s password without infringing on your Constitutional rights. That is, you don’t have the right to refuse such an order. If the police find information that way, the fact that you knew the password may not be used against you… but the evidence discovered can be. Cites on request. But as to the overarching issue, it’s perfectly possible to imagine that police have a text message from ZImmerman that could refute his claim of fear, and such a message would prove fatal – no pun intended – to his self-defense claim. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5200 "2012-08-17T17:03:30Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > What about it? > One ear sticks out farther than the other. What’s weird about that? > Many people are not precisely symmetrical. Doesn’t strike me as weird. It has nothing to do with symmetry. What is “off” is that there is a phone where his ear should be. It just doesn’t look right. And neither does all that light coming off the top of his head, despite the camera being aimed towards the back of his head. Did the witness have a spot light shining down on him? The picture just looks wrong to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5201 "2012-08-17T17:05:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The only benefit of SYG–separate and apart from “regular self defense”–is relieving the defense of the task of proving their client’s couldnt have retreated. That’s it. That’s all. How about the civil immunity? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5202 "2012-08-17T17:23:12Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > He has a red shirt on, the arm holding the phone is BLUE. He has a two-tone jacket with color blocking on. Check out the picture linked upthread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=259) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=261)