# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 262
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5223 "2012-08-18T01:09:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The same public who is bothered by the idea of someone killing a kid dead rather than try their damnedest to retreat first is the same public who believes Zimmerman should have retreated the minute he got out of his truck, and lost all claim to self defense as soon as he did that. Appealing to this public is a lost cause for O’Mara. Retreat from what when he got out of his truck? There was no threat. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5224 "2012-08-18T01:37:05Z")
This behind a paywall, but I’m sure it will be available on other sites. [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-autopsy-20120817\_1\_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-blood-loss](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-autopsy-20120817_1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-blood-loss) > [@](#): > > George Zimmerman may have shot Trayvon Martin in the heart, but that didn’t kill him instantly. > The 17-year-old survived for several minutes, according to two experts who reviewed Trayvon’s autopsy for the Orlando Sentinel. > “You’re talking about minutes, at least, for him to survive,” said Dr. William Anderson, a forensic specialist and former deputy medical examiner for Orange and Osceola counties. “I think he would have been conscious … for a little time, anyway.” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5225 "2012-08-18T01:55:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay, show that then. Clearly you think there are two Florida laws on the books, one for SYG and one for “regular self-defense”. You have my permission to show these two laws exist to the class. > > But before you do that, read this. > > [http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-law-self-defense-use-of-force.html](http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-law-self-defense-use-of-force.html) You were soooo close to finding the correct answer. Towards the bottom of the web page you linked you’ll find: \*Under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Law, Can a Claim of Self-Defense Entitle a Person to Immunity from Prosecution in Florida? In appropriate cases, yes. Under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, a person who meets the statutory requirements of self-defense can assert **immunity** from prosecution so as to avoid a jury trial altogether. For a more detailed discussion of the Florida Stand Your Ground law and the standards and procedures for claiming immunity, see our Jacksonville “Stand Your Ground” lawyer web page\*. If you had followed the “Stand Your Ground” lawyer link you would have found: _Here again, Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law makes **another significant change from the common law**. Under Section 776.032, Florida Statutes, a person who uses force as permitted in Section 776.012 or Section 776.013 “is **immune from criminal prosecution and civil action** ” for the use of such force (with certain limited exceptions). **Note the word “immune**.” This means that, if the accused can factually establish pre-trial that his or her use of deadly force occurred under the circumstances outlined in Section 776.012 or Section 776.013, **the State of Florida is legally and procedurally barred from further prosecution in the matter**. In the event that **a civil action is brought against the person** who used qualifying deadly force, a court must award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred in the defense of the case._ To sum this up, again, the FLA law pertaining to SYG specifically mentions civil immunity. The laws pertaining to self-defense do not mention civil immunity. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5226 "2012-08-18T02:06:45Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The same public who is bothered by the idea of someone killing a kid dead rather than try their damnedest to retreat first is the same public who believes Zimmerman should have retreated the minute he got out of his truck, and lost all claim to self defense as soon as he did that. Appealing to this public is a lost cause for O’Mara. But the actual jury will be made aware of what current FLA law states. There was no reason for GZ “to retreat the minute he got out of his truck”. Retreat from what? No one was being threatened with imminent death or great bodily harm at that point in time. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5227 "2012-08-18T02:15:17Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > To sum this up, again, the FLA law pertaining to SYG specifically mentions civil immunity. The laws pertaining to self-defense do not mention civil immunity. It still has yet to dawn on you that SYG and self-defense _are one in the same in the state of Florida_. Lord Jesus. Right there as clear as day it says the two statutes under which lethal force is justified allow for civil immunity, and yet you’re still acting like SYG is something other than self defense. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5228 "2012-08-18T04:06:20Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It still has yet to dawn on you that SYG and self-defense _are one in the same in the state of Florida_. Lord Jesus. Right there as clear as day it says the two statutes under which lethal force is justified allow for civil immunity, and yet you’re still acting like SYG is something other than self defense. You are correct. Wording such as - “_Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law makes another significant change from the common law_” and “_Under Florida’s ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law, Can a Claim of Self-Defense Entitle a Person to Immunity from Prosecution in Florida? In appropriate cases, yes_.” plus the fact that every self-defense case doesn’t seem to result in a SYG pre-trial hearing, I assumed that there was a difference. The “old” common law didn’t include the SYG pre-trial hearing but the “new” common law does. Ignorance fought. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5229 "2012-08-18T05:20:58Z")
[http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-autopsy-20120817\_1\_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-blood-loss](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-autopsy-20120817_1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-blood-loss) > [@](#): > > George Zimmerman may have shot Trayvon Martin in the heart, but that didn’t kill him instantly. > [@](#): > > The two doctors agreed that Trayvon remained conscious for a time. Anderson suggested the teenager may have been conscious for several minutes. Manion estimated it at just 20 to 30 seconds. > [@](#): > > There is other evidence that Trayvon survived for a short time. One witness told authorities that after the shooting Trayvon moved his leg. Oh snap. Bad day for Z-haters. Who is going to admit they were dead wrong (pun unintended)? Or does someone have to look back through the posts… and see who was confident he died instantly. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5230 "2012-08-18T05:38:51Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > A quarter of his heart was blown away by that bullet. > > Obvious things are obvious. Ouch. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I think it’s so implausible that it might as well be impossible, **Bricker**. But don’t let my beliefs stop you from dazzling us with more deer shootin’ anecdotes and publications from the 19th century. You and **Terr** are currently running neck and neck in the I’ll Make Myself Look Real Stupid and Desperate by Citing Complete Crap contest. Double ouch. Sugaree and Jack Batty were quite cynical about the claims, too. But You With the Face gets the award I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5231 "2012-08-18T05:57:23Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Sugaree and Jack Batty were quite cynical about the claims, too. But You With the Face gets the award I’m afraid. _snicker_. Ya gotta love the aplomb with which **ywtf** spews it, too. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5232 "2012-08-18T14:15:20Z")
I missed it. What’s the significance of TM being conscious for seconds or minutes? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5233 "2012-08-18T14:17:15Z")
As thrilling as these revelations might be to y’all, Martin having the audacity to have not died instantly does not in any way make Zimmerman’s claim more believable. And if these experts are where the defense funds are going towards, rather than, I dunno, experts who will say the cry for help on that tape was Zimmerman’s, then y’all should not be doing the happy dance. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5234 "2012-08-18T14:34:26Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > I missed it. > What’s the significance of TM being conscious for seconds or minutes? Several people in this thread said that Zimmerman claims that Martin said anything after being shot were incredible. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5235 "2012-08-18T14:36:13Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > This behind a paywall, but I’m sure it will be available on other sites. > > [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-autopsy-20120817\_1\_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-blood-loss](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-autopsy-20120817_1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-blood-loss) That’s not surprising. From the Zimmerman’s on flashlight, Trayvon must have stumbled south before being tackled by Zimmerman. When Zimmerman stretched out Trayvon’s arms, it was likely Trayvon who placed them back under his own body. It’s seems unlikely that Zimmerman would have been chasing Trayvon in the dark after dropping his only functioning flashlight. If you look at the reenactment video, it only took a short walk, mere seconds to reach the T from where the police car was parked (walking). Since Trayvon’s body was found near the T, and Zimmerman was on the phone with the dispatcher most of the time, not chasing anyone, the prosecution certainly has their work cut out for them. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5236 "2012-08-18T14:44:32Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Several people in this thread said that Zimmerman claims that Martin said anything after being shot were incredible. They still are. Just because Martin may have been alive for a few minutes doesn’t suddenly mean lines straight out of comic book were likely to have issued from his lips after having his heart and lungs ruptured with a hollow point bullet. Terri Schiavo was “alive”. Do yall really think this means something? I want to laugh at this but its too pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5237 "2012-08-18T15:21:55Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Several people in this thread said that Zimmerman claims that Martin said anything after being shot were incredible. And the impossibility was based on TM being unconscious and not on TM’s inability to use his lungs? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5238 "2012-08-18T15:22:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > They still are. Just because Martin may have been alive for a few minutes doesn’t suddenly mean lines straight out of comic book were likely to have issued from his lips after having his heart and lungs ruptured with a hollow point bullet. > > Terri Schiavo was “alive”. Do yall really think this means something? I want to laugh at this but its too pathetic. I think the post up thread used the word conscious, which is something that TS wasn’t afaik. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5239 "2012-08-18T15:28:27Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > And the impossibility was based on TM being unconscious and not on TM’s inability to use his lungs? It was approached both ways, but it primarily centered on the died “instantly” part in the autopsy. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5240 "2012-08-18T15:45:43Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > It was approached both ways, but it primarily centered on the died “instantly” part in the autopsy. So it hasn’t really been shown definitively that TM could or could not have said anything then? Do we have any info on how long it would take a sucking chest wound to collapse the unperforated lung? It seems to me, as a layman, that movement and consciousness could occur for a brief period even if speech were prohibited by deflated lungs. Imho, that seems more to the heart of the matter than whether or not TM retained consciousness for some moments after being shot through the heart and lung. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5241 "2012-08-18T16:18:36Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > So it hasn’t really been shown definitively that TM could or could not have said anything then? Correct. I guess it was asking too much for the reporter to ask them about the lungs, too. > [@](#): > > Do we have any info on how long it would take a sucking chest wound to collapse the unperforated lung? Not exactly. They do say something about his lung filling with blood in that article though. > [@](#): > > Imho, that seems more to the heart of the matter than whether or not TM retained consciousness for some moments after being shot through the heart and lung. You are obligated to say “(pun unintended)” or “(pun intended)” after you say “heart of the matter”. Now that his likely consciousness has been established, the situation with the lungs does indeed become the heart of the matter (pun unintended). But this does help silence some of the folks that made a deal about why GZ would try to restrain Trayvon when he was dead, why GZ wasn’t sure if he shot him, and why TM’s hands were reportedly found to be below his body when GZ said that he had extended them outward. Much hay had been made by some about the hands thing, so maybe this will alleviate their concerns (yeah, right.) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5242 "2012-08-18T16:43:35Z")
Let’s posit that Martin having collapsed lungs and a ruptured heart does not preclude him from speaking. Let’s even go as far as to say Martin did say “okay, you got me”. What in the world does this have to do with whether or not Zimmerman is guilty? This is where I expect someone to say “if he was conscious, this means he could have staggered south a few more feet, thus eliminating the crazy idea that Zimmerman chased the kid down there and then shot him.” Let’s, for a minute, pretend this is what happened. Zimmerman says after he shot the kid, he got on top of him and restrained him. So this means Z would have had to have gotten up off his back and chased after the kid, for purpose of detaining him. By his own words, Z didnt know he’d shot the kid, so in effect he would be admitting to escalating the conflict by grabbing Martin and holding him down instead staying away from him. Can y’all not see why this poses more problems for Zimmerman than what he has now? No, of course you cant see that. Just like you can’t see why trying this as “regular self defense” is stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=261) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=263)