# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 263
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5243 "2012-08-18T17:41:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Let’s posit that Martin having collapsed lungs and a ruptured heart does not preclude him from speaking. Let’s even go as far as to say Martin did say “okay, you got me”. > > What in the world does this have to do with whether or not Zimmerman is guilty? In my opinion, nothing. This whole line of thought was introduced by folks on _your_ side of the issue. > [@](#): > > This is where I expect someone to say “if he was conscious, this means he could have staggered south a few more feet, thus eliminating the crazy idea that Zimmerman chased the kid down there and then shot him.” You may expect someone to say that, but that’s definitely not something anyone has _actually_ said, or that I would ever say. > [@](#): > > Let’s, for a minute, pretend this is what happened. Zimmerman says after he shot the kid, he got on top of him and restrained him. So this means Z would have had to have gotten up off his back and chased after the kid, for purpose of detaining him. By his own words, Z didnt know he’d shot the kid, so in effect he would be admitting to escalating the conflict by grabbing Martin and holding him down instead staying away from him. > > Can y’all not see why this poses more problems for Zimmerman than what he has now? No, of course you cant see that. Just like you can’t see why trying this as “regular self defense” is stupid. Impressive deconstruction of the argument. Of course, the argument was constructed entirely by _you_. Then, by some convoluted logic, attributed to your opponents… and then triumphantly pronounced as ridiculous. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a more blatant straw man as one you watch an opponent construct in one sitting, before your very eyes, based on absolutely nothing but their _expectation_ of the argument (that would have probably never even come.) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5244 "2012-08-18T18:10:31Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > You may expect someone to say that, but that’s definitely not something anyone has _actually_ said, or that I would say. > [@hmarvin](#): > > That’s not surprising. From the Zimmerman’s on flashlight, Trayvon must have stumbled south before being tackled by Zimmerman. When Zimmerman stretched out Trayvon’s arms, it was likely Trayvon who placed them back under his own body. \*\*It’s seems unlikely that Zimmerman would have been chasing Trayvon in the dark after dropping his only functioning flashlight. \*\*If you look at the reenactment video, it only took a short walk, mere seconds to reach the T from where the police car was parked (walking). Since Trayvon’s body was found near the T, and Zimmerman was on the phone with the dispatcher most of the time, not chasing anyone, the prosecution certainly has their work cut out for them. I dunno, **emeraldia**. Sounds at least someone in this thread is already thinking along these lines. If I remember correctly, in the early days of this case, much ado was made over the possibility that Martin could have moved after being shot, which is why we had to accept it was no big deal that his body was oriented so far into the grass relative to the sidewalk. Hope it has finally dawned on you why making a big deal over Zimmerman retreating is a big mistake for the defense. Even if Martin collapsed right where he was shot, Zimmerman did not retreat as soon as he was able. He did the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5245 "2012-08-18T18:34:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Let’s posit that Martin having collapsed lungs and a ruptured heart does not preclude him from speaking. Let’s even go as far as to say Martin did say “okay, you got me”. > > What in the world does this have to do with whether or not Zimmerman is guilty? Because you made a huge friggin mountain over him lying about Martin saying a couple of words after being shot and now you’re back-peddling yet another one of your grassy-knoll theories. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This is where I expect someone to say “if he was conscious, this means he could have staggered south a few more feet, thus eliminating the crazy idea that Zimmerman chased the kid down there and then shot him.” > > Let’s, for a minute, pretend this is what happened. Zimmerman says after he shot the kid, he got on top of him and restrained him. So this means Z would have had to gotten up off his back and chased after the kid, for purpose of detaining him. By his own words, Z didnt know he’d shot the kid, so in effect he would be admitting to escalating the conflict by grabbing Martin and holding him down instead staying away from him. I have a better idea, lets stop pretending. He didn’t chase after Martin after shooting him. Martin was down but still alive. Zimmerman looked for a weapon out of common sense. That’s still falls under self defense. The extended beating indicated Martin intended to seriously harm Zimmerman. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Can y’all not see why this poses more problems for Zimmerman than what he has now? No, of course you cant see that. Just like you can’t see why trying this as “regular self defense” is stupid. More legal arguments from a non-lawyer who can’t be bothered to research debate points when challenged by a real lawyer. You’re arguments appear to be based on an emotional desire to hang Zimmerman and not hard evidence. It doesn’t seem to have occurred to you that the people defending Zimmerman have looked for solid flaws in his account and would have latched onto something with substance. There is no love for this man. But the same applies to Martin and the evidence shows he engaged in a serious beating without provocation. This lead to the shooting. He brought it on himself. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5246 "2012-08-18T19:10:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I dunno, **emeraldia**. Sounds at least someone in this thread is already thinking along these lines. If I remember correctly, in the early days of this case, much ado was made over the possibility that Martin could have moved after being shot, which is why we had to accept it was no big deal that his body was oriented so far into the grass relative to the sidewalk. It is possible that Martin moved after he shot him, but before Zimmerman was on top of him restraining him. Or that he moved while he was trying to restrain him. Or, that Martin moved after Zimmerman stopped restraining him. I don’t know- and I don’t know if an explanation for where Martin’s body was found is necessary, because I honestly haven’t looked closely at that issue yet. > [@](#): > > Hope it has finally dawned on you why making a big deal over Zimmerman retreating is a big mistake for the defense. Even if Martin collapsed right where he was shot, Zimmerman did not retreat as soon as he was able. He did the opposite. Well, he didn’t use deadly force _after_ he shot him, so he no longer had the duty to retreat. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5247 "2012-08-18T19:30:11Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > which is why we had to accept it was no big deal that his body was oriented so far into the grass relative to the sidewalk. “so far into the grass” meaning legs on sidewalk, head on the grass? That’s “so far”? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5248 "2012-08-18T20:47:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I have a better idea, lets stop pretending. He didn’t chase after Martin after shooting him. Martin was down but still alive. Zimmerman looked for a weapon out of common sense. That’s still falls under self defense. The extended beating indicated Martin intended to seriously harm Zimmerman. Zimmerman never said he searched the body to look for a weapon, so the only one pretending is you. He said he got on top of him and grabbed his arms. To him, the fight was still in progress because he didn’t know he’d hit the kid. This is ludicrously simple. He did not retreat. Even after the kid had “given up” (Zimmerman’s words, not mine), Z still was dadgum determined to bring the kid down. He went after him and tackled him. Bravo, Z. You confessed to manslaughter, and your fans can’t even see that. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5249 "2012-08-18T21:06:05Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > It is possible that Martin moved after he shot him, but before Zimmerman was on top of him restraining him. Which means Z went after him and tackled him like a lion pouncing on its wounded prey, yes. > [@](#): > > Or that he moved while he was trying to restrain him. Which means Martin, after taking a bullet to his chest, still was trying to get away from Zimmerman. And Zimmerman subverted this by wrestling him. > [@](#): > > Or, that Martin moved after Zimmerman stopped restraining him. That doesn’t change the fact that no matter how you slice it, Zimmerman continued to fight Martin even after the kid had pulled away from. A living, conscious Martin who was capable of traveling south after he was shot actually presents more problems for the defense than an instantaneously dead Martin. But go on touting those experts who claim Martin was conscious if you think him saying “ok, you got me” will help him stay out of prison. > [@](#): > > I don’t know- and I don’t know if an explanation for where Martin’s body was found is necessary, because I honestly haven’t looked closely at that issue closely yet. Maybe you should get around to doing that if you’re going to defend Zimmerman. > [@](#): > > Well, he didn’t use deadly force _after_ he shot him, so he no longer had the duty to retreat. It doesnt matter. By Zimmerman’s own words, he didn’t know the kid had been shot, so he still thought the fight in progress. And, according to the doctors you just were crowing about, Martin in all likelihood was still alive and conscious at the time when Zimmerman got on top of him. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5250 "2012-08-18T22:06:56Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Zimmerman never said he searched the body to look for a weapon… Zimmerman said he thought Martin was carrying something in his hands when he was hitting him so he was looking for it. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5251 "2012-08-18T22:09:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Which means Z went after him and tackled him like a lion pouncing on its wounded prey, yes. I’m not sure I would leap (or pounce) to this and other conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5252 "2012-08-18T22:22:29Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > They still are. Just because Martin may have been alive for a few minutes doesn’t suddenly mean lines straight out of comic book were likely to have issued from his lips after having his heart and lungs ruptured with a hollow point bullet. Is admitting you were wrong against your religious faith? I agree this proves nothing about what he said, but you sneered at the cites that showed it was possible he didn’t instantly expire. “Possible.” That’s all I was saying. And you fought it tooth and nail. Do you now admit the possibility? More important: do you now acknowledge your previous stance of “impossible” was wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5253 "2012-08-18T22:34:23Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay, show that then. Clearly you think there are two Florida laws on the books, one for SYG and one for “regular self-defense”. You have my permission to show these two laws exist to the class. > > But before you do that, read this. > > [http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-law-self-defense-use-of-force.html](http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-law-self-defense-use-of-force.html) Do you understand the difference between civil and criminal liability? No, I don’t think there are two laws on the books. I think there’s one law on the books. I am talking about when that law confers CIVIL immunity. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5254 "2012-08-18T23:29:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The circumstantial evidence alone is enough to disprove that. You’re talking about two guys, ones significantly smaller than the other and also unarmed, fighting in an open area. This, after the larger guy hopped out of the safety of his truck to run the previously unsuspecting smaller guy down in the dark. This is all the State has to point out to destroy “he couldn’t retreat!” argument. There’s nothing the defense has as a rebuttal that compares. > > And just so you know, “If he could have escaped, he would have done so when his nose was punched!” is an exercise in rationalization. It’s not a logical argument. It’s something so lacking in critical thought that it has no business being put to text. The _fact_ - you know, the thing that we can prove, with actual evidence, rather than make up to defend our wild irrational speculation - that Zimmerman was on his back being punched and restrained by Martin for minutes before he shot him, proves that he couldn’t retreat. At no point before the fight started did Zimmerman have any duty to retreat - he was perfectly within his rights to follow and verbally confront Martin. If he started the fight, he has a duty to attempt to retreat before shooting - which it appears he attempted to do, else he would have shot Martin immediately. Which, as far as we know, as there’s no evidence he attacked Martin, he was entitled to. This destroys your theory that Zimmerman _wanted_ to kill Martin. As for attempting to restrain Martin after the shot was fired, that’s perfectly legitimate. He had no reason to think Martin would stop his assault, as he didn’t initially think he killed him. Every one of your theories about this case has been shown to be wrong. Even the ones where you’ve backpeddaled from your previous craziness, they’re still wrong, and demonstrably so. Answer this - why do you want to see a man who is probably innocent convicted of murder? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5255 "2012-08-18T23:36:29Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Zimmerman said he thought Martin was carrying something in his hands when he was hitting him so he was looking for it. Like I said, he never said he searched his body to look for a weapon. He said he had placed himself on top of Martin and stretched his arms out with both of his hands. Unless the man has a third hand that none of know about, he couldn’t have been searching the kid’s body. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5256 "2012-08-18T23:55:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you understand the difference between civil and criminal liability? > > No, I don’t think there are two laws on the books. I think there’s one law on the books. I am talking about when that law confers CIVIL immunity. Before I argue with you anymore, are you really telling me you think a defendant who says they shot someone in self defense because they couldn’t retreat might be ineligible for civil immunity, but someone who says they we’re standing their ground can get it? That passes the reality test to you, really? And you have law degree as well? The state of Florida does not distinguish between “I couldn’t retreat” self defense and “I could retreat but did not” self defense. Both types fall under the umbrella of SYG. The statutes make that clear. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5257 "2012-08-19T00:07:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As for attempting to restrain Martin after the shot was fired, that’s perfectly legitimate. He had no reason to think Martin would stop his assault, as he didn’t initially think he killed him. The law is clear on this, so it really doesn’t matter what excuse you come up with to defend him this time. Once an assailant withdraws and stops their attack, any attempt to continue or resume the confrontation constitutes escalation, and you forfeit any claim of self defense. The deadly force didn’t techinically become “deadly” until Martin died, so Zimmerman had escalated the conflict when it was still in progress by dint of Martin still being alive. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5258 "2012-08-19T00:27:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The law is clear on this, so it really doesn’t matter what excuse you come up with to defend him this time. Once an assailant withdraws and stops their attack, any attempt to continue or resume the confrontation constitutes escalation, and you forfeit any claim of self defense. The deadly force didn’t techinically become “deadly” until Martin died, so Zimmerman had escalated the conflict when it was still in progress by dint of Martin still being alive. Once he stops being in reasonable fear of death or serious injury, he has to stop defending himself. It’s not the act of withdrawing that matters, it’s the perception by the victim. So, you’re arguing that someone restraining someone who’s been brutally beating them isn’t legitimate self defence? You’re wrong here, as usual. I notice you still haven’t answered my question - why do you want to see a man who the evidence suggests is innocent convicted of murder? Why do you keep twisting the evidence to find any scrap that makes him look guilty, despite the fact that the majority is in his favour? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5259 "2012-08-19T00:42:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Once he stops being in reasonable fear of death or serious injury, he has to stop defending himself. It’s not the act of withdrawing that matters, it’s the perception by the victim. No, that is not how it works. If we take this theory of yours to its logical conclusion, then anyone could fight anyone else and not be obligated to stop until the other guy is dead. Even if the other guy backed away. It is not reasonable to be afraid of someone who has “given up” (again, this what Zimmerman said Martin did…interesting choice of words, ain’t it). The reason I know you’re not looking at this logically is the fact that you’re defending Zimmerman using the very same issue that gets him in trouble. That issue being the idea that he thought Martin was still alive and uninjured. If he thought the kid had “given up” out of his own volition (rather than because he was shot), there was absolutely no reason why he should have opted to have wrestled and pinned him to protect himself. If you were in the fight of your life and your assailant backed off of you, would you get up and try to run away in case the guy changed his mind? Or would you get up off the ground and run right to him so you can lay on top of him and wrap your hands around his? > [@](#): > > So, you’re arguing that someone restraining someone who’s been brutally beating them isn’t legitimate self defence? You’re wrong here, as usual. Not when restraining them follows the withdrawal of physical threat. This is what the law says, not me. > [@](#): > > I notice you still haven’t answered my question - why do you want to see a man who the evidence suggests is innocent convicted of murder? Why do you keep twisting the evidence to find any scrap that makes him look guilty, despite the fact that the majority is in his favour? I didn’t answer the question because it’s a stupid one loaded with shrillness. Obviously I don’t think Zimmerman is innocent. I think he’s guilty of murdering an innocent kid, and that’s why I want him to go to jail. Shocker, I know. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5260 "2012-08-19T01:20:25Z")
Please cite any part of the self defence law that says someone may not defend themself against a person when they are in reasonable fear of harm. The person does not have to be actually attacking them, or doing anything illegal - although of course their actions affect whether it’s reasonable. There was no reason for Zimmerman’s fear to cease just because Martin was no longer on top of him. Had Martin got off and run away, and Zimmerman shot him in the back, you would be right, but that’s the level it would need to be at. I see you still claim to believe Zimmerman is guilty of murder. You either don’t understand the law, or don’t understand what happened in this case. We know Martin attacked Zimmerman, we know he inflicted serious bodily harm on him, and we know he was on top of Zimmerman preventing Zimmerman from retreating when he shot him. Those things combined make the shooting legal. Now, even if your argument that Zimmerman shouldn’t have approached Martin after firing the shot was valid (which it isn’t), it still would make him at most guilty of assault, as it had no effect on whether Martin died. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5261 "2012-08-19T01:47:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There was no reason for Zimmerman’s fear to cease just because Martin was no longer on top of him. Had Martin got off and run away, and Zimmerman shot him in the back, you would be right, but that’s the level it would need to be at. I swear it was you who, less than 24 hours ago, insisted that the only way Zimmerman could have retreated from Martin was by burrowing into the ground with his sphincter. That was you, right? Such vivid, heart tugging imagery. But when you reconcile this with what supposedly happened after Martin “gave up”, it becomes quite comical. Zimmerman was unable to retreat from Martin, except, you know, when he could. And instead of using that opportuntity to retreat, he plopped his fat self on top of the kid. It’s clear to me now why O’Mara announced he wants to try this as traditional self defense. He wants the prosecution to offer him a plea deal, the poor guy. He is essentially waving a white flag and showing his tail tucked beneath legs, while at the same time trotting out a line of BS to fool Zimmerman supporters into thinking he has a strong case. > [@](#): > > Now, even if your argument that Zimmerman shouldn’t have approached Martin after firing the shot was valid (which it isn’t), it still would make him at most guilty of assault, as it had no effect on whether Martin died. At a minimum, it shows that Zimmerman was more interested in fighting Martin than getting away from him. This, in addition to his mild wounds, will destroy any claim that he had reasonable fear of serious injury when he pulled that trigger. At worst, it shows that Zimmerman forfeited his claim to self defense by escalating the conflict even after Martin withdrew from him. This would make him guilty of manslaughter at the minimum. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5262 "2012-08-19T02:07:28Z")
Zimmerman should have told the story like this, if we are to believe his claim that he had no retreat due to the menace-to-society that Martin was: “I fired the gun. He reared back and said ‘You got this’, but I didn’t know what the hell that meant. I thought he was still dangerous. So I pushed him and ran like the dickens. It was only after I looked behind me and saw I wasn’t being chased that I realized I had shot him.” Also, why would he stop screaming if he didn’t know that Martin had been shot? If we are to believe his story, he felt his life was in danger right before and right after the gun had gone off. Yet the screams paint a different picture. The thing I still don’t get is that Martin’s arms were not found stretched out in the way that Zimmerman said they were. Was this ever explained? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=262) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=264)