# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 271
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5403 "2012-08-21T22:51:37Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Well, where’s your outrage? Though, frankly, I’m sure if I looked in your profile history you’re probably knee-deep in those threads anyway. > > - Honesty Outrage at what? You’re projecting my thoughts without any conversation or position I’ve taken. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5404 "2012-08-21T23:09:28Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > with all of the ball-stroking that’s been going on, will tell you otherwise. Or, better yet, let’s do the math: You have a small town of 53,570 people. The population contains 57% White, 30% Black and 20% Latino. What is the statistical probability that an all-white jury will be selected? The jury comes from Seminole **county** , not the city of Sanford. The county is 9% black. With a 6 person jury do the math. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5405 "2012-08-22T00:04:21Z")
Things are really getting out of hand here. I can’t pick part who needs to be warned and who doesn’t at this point, so I’m going to give everyone one last chance to COOL IT … or the next Zimmerman/Martin comment is going to have to be made in a pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5406 "2012-08-22T00:29:05Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Don’t misquote me, please. I said that Zimmerman is a “narcissistic asshole who is lying through his teeth” I didn’t write “narcissistic, lying asshole who murdered Trayvon”. And no, I don’t hate George Zimmerman. I don’t even know him. My apologies. I had thought it would be fair to conclude you believed George Zimmerman to be guilty. > [@](#): > > Not surprising. ADD or ADHD? Have you considered asking your psychiatrist for mood stabilizers and benzodiapenes. Though I bet my bottom dollar you already have the latter. Gotta come down, right? Remember what I said about the role that some black people have in helping to form the stereotypes about them? I would suggest that many of your comments said _as_ a “black man”, do the exact opposite of helping to stop the formation of negative stereotypes of black people. > [@](#): > > I’d imagine he’d be on trial for manslaughter. If the black man had a likely broken nose, a bloody head- witnesses saw the other guy on top of that black man throwing punches “MMA-style”- and the other guy had no wounds of any kind? That black man is likely to be going home- and not being charged with anything. In _other_, more _ambiguous_ situations? Yes, a black person may statistically be more likely to be arrested, etc. Prejudice, bias, etc. exists. But at about a 1 to 50 ratio of what you seem to think it does. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5407 "2012-08-22T06:22:41Z")
This an interesting Florida SYG/self-defense case that occurred in the next county over from mine. [http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jan/03/collier-judge-upholds-stand-your-ground-defense-ca/](http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jan/03/collier-judge-upholds-stand-your-ground-defense-ca/) > [@](#): > > Accompanied by several students, Dylan Nuno, a junior, followed Saavedra, a freshman, off the bus. He then punched him in the back of the head, according to court documents and testimony. > > Saavedra attempted to get away once, witnesses said. He then stabbed Dylan Nuno 12 times in the chest and abdomen. Two of the blows caused fatal wounds, including one that nicked his heart. > > In her decision, signed Dec. 30, 2011, the judge said Saavedra had “no duty to retreat” and was “legally entitled to meet force with force, even deadly force.” > > “The defendant was in a place where he had a right to be and was not acting unlawfully. He had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm … (He) was under attack from the first punch to the back of his head until he stabbed Dylan Nuno.” (He had been put in the hospital by this kid before, so it’s not an entirely straight-forward case of a punch being upheld as grounds for lethal self-defense.) But it’s interesting nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5408 "2012-08-22T16:05:27Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > This an interesting Florida SYG/self-defense case that occurred in the next county over from mine. > > [http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jan/03/collier-judge-upholds-stand-your-ground-defense-ca/](http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jan/03/collier-judge-upholds-stand-your-ground-defense-ca/) > (He had been put in the hospital by this kid before, so it’s not an entirely straight-forward case of a punch being upheld as grounds for lethal self-defense.) But it’s interesting nonetheless. It is interesting that the State Attorney didn’t appeal the decision even though they charged with second degree. It indicates to me that they screwed up filing for 2nd degree in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5409 "2012-08-22T18:38:37Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Remember what I said about the role that some black people have in helping to form the stereotypes about them? I would suggest that many of your comments said _as_ a “black man”, do the exact opposite of helping to stop the formation of negative stereotypes of black people. Fascinating. In every job I’ve had after college I have always been the only black person. I’ve had white people praise me, treat me like shit, etc and never have I extrapolated that behavior to white people as a whole. I treat whites with humanity just as I treat any other living, breathing human being. With that said, I am not here to help strengthen or weaken stereotypes you (or, for that matter, anyone here) have of black men. Though, to be honest, with 3 science degrees and four published papers on Pubmed (2 are first-author) before the age of 30; that’s on top of being raised by a single parent on evil and socialist welfare with no daddy in the wasteland of Detroit, Michigan. Far as I’m concerned, I’ve already made Black History - what’s your contribution to your field? Where’s your adversity? Now, if you need great black role-models, there’s the Obamas, the Smiths (Jada and Will), the Washingtons, Ms. Berry, Oprah, and the list goes on and on; but please, like Charles Barkley, don’t look to me as a role-model. Bitte, schoen. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5410 "2012-08-22T18:49:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes. You think white people think black people are animals. You think Zimmerman must have been out to hunt down and kill a nigger, because that’s what you think white people want to do. > > You are wrong, obviously. So wrong, I can only suggest you seek psychiatric help. I don’t think Zimmerman donned an Elmer Fudd hat and went “nigger hunting”. I think Zimmerman approached Trayvon, tried to physically restrain him, got his ass beat, and then shot him. Yes, I think uneducated white people think black people are animals. Even the United States constitution referred to us as less than human. Why are you so confident that this meme has vanished from the annals of time? I’m genuinely curious. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5411 "2012-08-22T19:04:59Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Even the United States constitution referred to us as less than human. At the behest of free states. The slave-holders didn’t want the Constitution to refer to blacks as 3/5ths of a person – the slave-holders wanted blacks to count as a full person. The free states wanted balcks to not be counted at all. 3/5ths was the compromise. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5412 "2012-08-22T20:01:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At the behest of free states. > > The slave-holders didn’t want the Constitution to refer to blacks as 3/5ths of a person – **the slave-holders wanted blacks to count as a full person.** The free states wanted balcks to not be counted at all. > > 3/5ths was the compromise. Solely for voting/representation purposes. Not because they wanted blacks to be enfranchised. Might as well add cattle to the population too. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5413 "2012-08-22T20:40:34Z")
That’s true, but does not mean that Honesty’s claim is correct. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5414 "2012-08-22T21:17:06Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Fascinating. In every job I’ve had after college I have always been the only black person. I’ve had white people praise me, treat me like shit, etc and never have I extrapolated that behavior to white people as a whole. I treat whites with humanity just as I treat any other living, breathing human being. With that said, I am not here to help strengthen or weaken stereotypes you (or, for that matter, anyone here) have of black men. Though, to be honest, with 3 science degrees and four published papers on Pubmed (2 are first-author) before the age of 30; that’s on top of being raised by a single parent on evil and socialist welfare with no daddy in the wasteland of Detroit, Michigan. Far as I’m concerned, I’ve already made Black History - what’s your contribution to your field? Where’s your adversity? Now, if you need great black role-models, there’s the Obamas, the Smiths (Jada and Will), the Washingtons, Ms. Berry, Oprah, and the list goes on and on; but please, like Charles Barkley, don’t look to me as a role-model. Bitte, schoen. > > - Honesty And with all that alledged background post 5383 was the best you could do? Fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5415 "2012-08-22T21:56:00Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Fascinating. In every job I’ve had after college I have always been the only black person. I’ve had white people praise me, treat me like shit, etc and **never have I extrapolated that behavior to white people as a whole.** Fascinating. I had thought that generalization was an innate cognitive tendency that universally applied to every human being. I’ve finally found an exception. > [@Honesty](#): > > …As a black man, I can tell you that one thing that I’ve learned from Straight Dope - which has, unfortunately, been confirmed in the real world - is that **white people, generally speaking** , do not look at non-whites with the same humanity as they view themselves. We’re just brown animals. Frankly, **if whites didn’t want us here** , they should’ve sided with Malcolm X rather than pretending that King’s vision was better. Hmm.. that sure sounds suspiciously like generalization to me- or "extrapolating behavior to white people as a whole’. Actually that seems exactly what it is. But such a concept, to you, is so unfamiliar that you find it ‘fascinating’. So there has be some other reasonable explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5416 "2012-08-22T22:46:58Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Fascinating. In every job I’ve had after college I have always been the only black person. I’ve had white people praise me, treat me like shit, etc and never have I extrapolated that behavior to white people as a whole. I treat whites with humanity just as I treat any other living, breathing human being. With that said, I am not here to help strengthen or weaken stereotypes you (or, for that matter, anyone here) have of black men. Though, to be honest, with 3 science degrees and four published papers on Pubmed (2 are first-author) before the age of 30; that’s on top of being raised by a single parent on evil and socialist welfare with no daddy in the wasteland of Detroit, Michigan. Far as I’m concerned, I’ve already made Black History - what’s your contribution to your field? Where’s your adversity? Now, if you need great black role-models, there’s the Obamas, the Smiths (Jada and Will), the Washingtons, Ms. Berry, Oprah, and the list goes on and on; but please, like Charles Barkley, don’t look to me as a role-model. Bitte, schoen. > > - Honesty Perhaps you should try seeing yourself, and other people, as _people_, not colours. For whatever reason, you appear to view everything through a lens of race. That, ultimately, makes you racist. It may be unconscious, but it’s obvious in all your posts. That racism existed, or exists, against black people doesn’t give you the right to indulge in it against anybody. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5417 "2012-08-22T22:48:03Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I don’t think Zimmerman donned an Elmer Fudd hat and went “nigger hunting”. I think Zimmerman approached Trayvon, tried to physically restrain him, got his ass beat, and then shot him. Yes, I think uneducated white people think black people are animals. Even the United States constitution referred to us as less than human. Why are you so confident that this meme has vanished from the annals of time? I’m genuinely curious. > > - Honesty Considering that Zimmerman was heard pounding his flashlight on the dog potty minutes before the incident, near where Martin’s body was found. what is your hypothesis as to why unbruised Martin couldn’t get away while Zimmerman was just standing there, trying to make his flashlight work? Was he just waiting for Zimmerman to finish? If so, this would seem to indicate he wasn’t that frightened, so why did he run away? Bringing up race doesn’t help matters. I’m a proud Native American, pretty much uneducated, but I’ve come to the conclusion blacks and whites are as much a part of the human family as we are. Hopefully that will be the final word on that subject. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5418 "2012-08-22T23:58:56Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Fascinating. I treat whites with humanity just as I treat any other living, breathing human being. Really? Does that include the uneducated white people who according to you think black people are animals? Because that would be both a very noble thing to do on your part and an extremely bigoted position to take. > [@Honesty](#): > > With that said, I am not here to help strengthen or weaken stereotypes you (or, for that matter, anyone here) have of black men. Though, to be honest, with 3 science degrees and four published papers on Pubmed (2 are first-author) before the age of 30; that’s on top of being raised by a single parent on evil and socialist welfare with no daddy in the wasteland of Detroit, Michigan. Seriously good job overcoming adversity. You’re entitled to a modest self pat on the back. > [@Honesty](#): > > Far as I’m concerned, I’ve already made Black History – that’s a pretty big self pat on the back. Make sure to thank your mom at the award ceremony. > [@Honesty](#): > > I don’t think Zimmerman donned an Elmer Fudd hat and went “nigger hunting”. I think Zimmerman approached Trayvon, tried to physically restrain him, got his ass beat, and then shot him. ? What evidence do you have that Zimmerman tried to approach him let alone restrain him? The evidence shows the fight started on the sidewalk that Zimmerman had walked back and forth on. Why would Martin be there in the first place considering Zimmerman didn’t see him while on the phone to the dispatcher. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5419 "2012-08-23T14:21:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really? Does that include the uneducated white people who according to you think black people are animals? Because that would be both a very noble thing to do on your part and an extremely bigoted position to take. > Seriously good job overcoming adversity. You’re entitled to a modest self pat on the back. > that’s a pretty big self pat on the back. Make sure to thank your mom at the award ceremony. > ? What evidence do you have that Zimmerman tried to approach him let alone restrain him? The evidence shows the fight started on the sidewalk that Zimmerman had walked back and forth on. Why would Martin be there in the first place considering Zimmerman didn’t see him while on the phone to the dispatcher. If you give any merit to what Zimmerman said, the probable reason, imho, Martin took off running is because he saw Zimmerman was on the phone. He attacked when he saw Zimmerman reaching for his phone. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5420 "2012-08-23T16:44:19Z")
I’m often accused of focusing on the law and not the morality of a situation. And of course, when the issue is how to treat someone arrested for a crime, that’s exactly what we should do. But **Honesty** ’s point should not simply be forgotten, because this is both an individual issue – Zimmerman accused of a crime, which the state must prove against him beyond a reasonable doubt as to each and every element – and a larger social issue. The larger social issue should have ourselves asking questions like, “Should the law really remove a duty to retreat Isn’t a human life worth more to us than the right to not back down, even if you were acting legally in the first place? In other words, retreating to avoid a fatal confrontation is what our society should encourage, not standing one’s ground even if someone dies. This isn’t Tombstone. Police are minutes away. In this age, the law should reflect our society’s understanding of the primacy of human life over human pride in being able to stand on a patch of ground.” Zimmerman must be tried according to the law, as it is. But what should we make the law be? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5421 "2012-08-23T17:11:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The larger social issue should have ourselves asking questions like, “Should the law really remove a duty to retreat Isn’t a human life worth more to us than the right to not back down, even if you were acting legally in the first place? In other words, retreating to avoid a fatal confrontation is what our society should encourage, not standing one’s ground even if someone dies. This isn’t Tombstone. Police are minutes away. In this age, the law should reflect our society’s understanding of the primacy of human life over human pride in being able to stand on a patch of ground.” > > Zimmerman must be tried according to the law, as it is. But what should we make the law be? Sounds like a Great Debates topic to me. It doesn’t belong in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5422 "2012-08-23T17:56:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m often accused of focusing on the law and not the morality of a situation. > > And of course, when the issue is how to treat someone arrested for a crime, that’s exactly what we should do. > > But **Honesty** ’s point should not simply be forgotten, because this is both an individual issue – Zimmerman accused of a crime, which the state must prove against him beyond a reasonable doubt as to each and every element – and a larger social issue. > > The larger social issue should have ourselves asking questions like, “Should the law really remove a duty to retreat Isn’t a human life worth more to us than the right to not back down, even if you were acting legally in the first place? In other words, retreating to avoid a fatal confrontation is what our society should encourage, not standing one’s ground even if someone dies. This isn’t Tombstone. Police are minutes away. In this age, the law should reflect our society’s understanding of the primacy of human life over human pride in being able to stand on a patch of ground.” > > Zimmerman must be tried according to the law, as it is. But what should we make the law be? Another question is how you remove human error from the system? I remember reading about this case in Alabama, where the man’s wife and daughter were missing, so they executed the cruel and heartless husband and father for killing them, only to find the wife and daughter alive and well in Indiana. The number of people released from prison is getting rather high, since the advent of DNA testing, many of whom, after spending decades in prison, couldn’t have committed the alleged crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=270) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=272)