# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 274
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5463 "2012-08-25T03:09:11Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > [ol] > [li]The physical evidence says the fight started at the top of the T.[/li][li]It seems implausible that Zimmerman would walk past Martin and neither would say anything that the NEN operator would overhear.[/li][li]That implies that Martin was somewhere south of the T.[/li][li]That implies some doubling back was involved.[/li][/ol] > I don’t insist he went all the to Brandy Green’s house. We only have some rather ambiguous hearsay from Dede to support that. I think he stopped on some porch and was talking to Dede and then came back. This. Whether Martin was actually next to his house or hiding somewhere between the top of the T he had to have doubled back and there is only one reason for him to do that and that’s to confront Zimmerman. If he was hiding nearby he would have heard the conversation and known Zimmerman called the cops on him. Given Dee Dee’s account (as the most argument friendly to Martin’s side of the argument) Martin would have been presented with a challenge for being in the neighborhood. This, IMO, was the trigger for the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5464 "2012-08-25T03:18:33Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I see what you’re trying to do. This reminds me of what [Charles Blow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_M._Blow) answer to Bill Maher’s question, “Is denial of racism, the _new_ racism?” He responded by explaining that when blacks talk about racism we are “met with people saying ‘What are you identifying as racism has no basis in race and the fact you’re seeing it means you seeing at the world through a racial prism’. That’s a very dangerous position for us to be in because we can no longer talk about the subject without everyone pointing fingers at everyone else”. I think he’s right, I couldn’t have said it better myself. > > - Honesty Here’s the problem with your position. I can go places and hear things that wouldn’t be said in your presence. You can only guess. The social changes that have occurred in the last half of the 20th century are substantial. It doesn’t mean there aren’t people with racial issues. It means they are the odd man out. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5465 "2012-08-25T07:35:02Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I see what you’re trying to do. This reminds me of what [Charles Blow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_M._Blow) answer to Bill Maher’s question, “Is denial of racism, the _new_ racism?” He responded by explaining that when blacks talk about racism we are “met with people saying ‘What are you identifying as racism has no basis in race and the fact you’re seeing it means you seeing at the world through a racial prism’. That’s a very dangerous position for us to be in because we can no longer talk about the subject without everyone pointing fingers at everyone else”. I think he’s right, I couldn’t have said it better myself. I don’t see how that really has much, if anything, to do with what I said. In fact, I said much the opposite of that. I’m saying that we should accept that _everybody_ makes, and is influenced by, generalizations made about other people based on their race. If that is your definition of ‘racism’, then we are _all_ racists and should just admit it. _I_ admit it. You are the one that seems to be in “denial”. I absolutely have made, and am influenced by, generalizations about black people. I’ll make your day even further. When I first heard the media accounts that Trayvon Martin was a 17 year old black male who was mild-mannered, respectful, well-behaved, and in excellent academic standing? I was more than a bit skeptical- and that’s an understatement. You, and many others, will label that racism at its worst. To this I say.. for you to ask me to not feel the skepticism I did, is for you to ask me to not only play dumb, but to deny my own personal experiences. If that makes me a racist, then, well, so be it, but I won’t deny reality as I perceive it because it doesn’t jive with your idea of racial harmony. And that’s precisely how I feel about it. The sad thing, in a way, is that my instincts about young black males were only reinforced further. I will only be a little _more_ skeptical next time. And I don’t feel the least bit guilty about it. People can’t help but notice patterns and correlations. People can’t help but make, and be influenced by, generalizations based on identifiable characteristics. This includes, but is not limited to race. _I_ define racism as someone who _unduly_ influenced by a generalization based on race. I don’t believe that I am. Even if I have a strong expectation about a person, I give everyone a chance to defy my expectations. That included Trayvon. That includes you. An actual racist won’t give someone the benefit of the doubt. Their mind is made up. I don’t hate black people. Personally, I would love to see black people, in general, overcome a lot of the problems that plague their communities. Would love to see it. Would love to see young, decent, black men succeed. I’d bend over backwards for one if given the opportunity. And yes, I did vote for Obama, dated a black girl, believe in some forms of affirmative action, believe in some forms of reparations, believe the United States needs to build a major memorial re: slavery, etc. But I realize it’s probably pointless to say such things. After all, I never went into business with a black man, never protested on behalf of a black man, I never mentored black children, etc. I don’t have 1/100th of the “I’m _obviously_ not a racist!” credentials that Zimmerman has, and most black people think he’s a racist. (Which also ended up reinforcing another generalization about blacks.) So there ya go. I bet I made your day. But one of us ought to try to live up to your nickname. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5466 "2012-08-25T09:31:53Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Who I am is reduced from my experiences. Here’s a message board that monthly hosts racist assertions against black people (e.g. “Black people are dumb”, “Black people have inferior genes”). I maneuver through an Internet - whether it be news or gaming - where racist comments are made toward black people. To think that views and actions such as these exist in a vacuum inside the Internet or espoused by an very small minority is asking me not only to play dumb but to deny my own personal experiences. If that makes me a racist, then, well, so be it, but I won’t deny reality as I perceive it because it doesn’t jive with your idea of racial harmony. “They do it too” does not make your actions or beliefs acceptable, especially when you are simply mirroring the views you claim to hate, and that you claim so degrade you.. > [@](#): > > DeeDee’s [testimony](http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/deedeestatetranscript.pdf), specifically her statement that Trayvon shouted “Get off me” during the altercation. This is why I think (1) Zimmerman attempted to restrain Trayvon (2) Trayvon defended himself and (3) Zimmerman shot him. I think DeeDee’s testimony deserves significant weight because she was on the phone when the altercation started and she has no bias toward Zimmerman in her statement. She simply is stating the facts as she recalls them. > > In contrast, Zimmerman’s account has too many extraneous embellishments: popping out of the bushes, the comic book dialogue (“You got a problem”/You got me!"), and confusion whether Trayvon was skipping, running, half-skipping, or some combination thereof. It comes down to judging the character of a person. Given his medical history, his previous run-in with the law, and him getting on television to plead his case to the public like he’s Rod Blagojevich, makes me think he is lying. In the interview with Sean Hannity, he admitted that he was not afraid of Trayvon. Why are you more likely to believe the account of someone who didn’t even contact the police until several weeks after the incident, and then only after being coached by the Martin’s lawyer, than someone who was actually there? I can understand doubting Zimmerman - but to then believe uncritically DeeDee’s story is absurd. Also, no, you don’t get to take into account Zimmerman’s past history when judging his truthfulness here, you get to take into account the other evidence. Which basically supports his story. > [@](#): > > That’s unbelievably stupid and, yes, I am gonna blame him for being on high alert. You know, I’ve noticed that when there’s a story about a boy or girl getting kidnapped and/or molested, that 9/10 it’s gonna be white male’s picture plastered on the screen. Should I start tackling white males to the ground when and if they cross 500 feet from an elementary school? > > Far as I’m concerned, this is the United States of America, the idea of profiling someone because they are wearing an accessory designed to protect against inclement weather is stupid. It was raining. If I had hooded jacket (or “hoodie”) and it was raining, I’d pull it over my head as well. Wouldn’t you? Profiling someone because they fit the description of a criminal is always acceptable. Acting _only_ because they fit that description is not. Look, in this case, young black men _had_ been burgling houses in the area. i don’t care if you dislike that fact, it remains a fact. Trayvon Martin was a young black man, in a private, gated community that he was not resident in, walking slowly in the rain, looking at the houses around him. Zimmerman was absolutely right to be suspicious, and to call the police. He was stupid to follow him, admittedly, but that’s because it’s stupid to put oneself at risk from a suspected criminal. As it turned out, he _was_ at risk of a beating, and for his own safety shouldn’t have followed him. It’s fortunate he was able to stop the beating before it became even more serious. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5467 "2012-08-25T09:42:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He was a thieving, graffiti painting, pot smoking scholastic problem child who called himself “ No\_Limit\_Nigga”. It’s logical to assume that Martin would have been insulted by the question Zimmerman asked him and doubly so given a similar world view of white people that you hold. I’ve never understood why people keep harping on this, making your race part of your online identity is not exactly rare for black teenagers. And pot smoking is certainly rare behavior for a teen! My word! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5468 "2012-08-25T10:54:21Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > [ol] > [li]The physical evidence says the fight started at the top of the T.[/li][li]It seems implausible that Zimmerman would walk past Martin and neither would say anything that the NEN operator would overhear.[/li][li]That implies that Martin was somewhere south of the T.[/li][li]That implies some doubling back was involved.[/li][/ol] > I don’t insist he went all the to Brandy Green’s house. We only have some rather ambiguous hearsay from Dede to support that. I think he stopped on some porch and was talking to Dede and then came back. Why couldn’t he have hidden, so that Zimmerman walked past Martin without seeing him? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5469 "2012-08-25T14:31:50Z")
Why would Martin even hide? He certainly wasn’t scared when he was brave enough to walk up to Zimmerman’s car. And what was Zimmerman doling that caused Martin to bolt? Zimmerman was just talking on his cellphone. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5470 "2012-08-25T15:04:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why couldn’t he have hidden, so that Zimmerman walked past Martin without seeing him? Where exactly are you suggesting he was hiding? There was no cover along the walkway at the top of the T and Zimmerman did have a flashlight. Any hiding place further south would involve doubling back. I already suggested he was sitting on a porch. All the plausible hiding places are south of the T. I think sitting on a porch is more plausible than lurking in bushes in the rain. I would also like to point out that having Martin hide close to Zimmerman is implausible since Zimmerman would have heard him talking to DeeDee. Also if Martin could hear Zimmerman talking to the police, then waiting for Zimmerman to hang up leads to rather unfavorable implications about Martin’s motives. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5471 "2012-08-25T15:20:26Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Why would Martin even hide? He certainly wasn’t scared when he was brave enough to walk up to Zimmerman’s car. And what was Zimmerman doling that caused Martin to bolt? Zimmerman was just talking on his cellphone. There’s a huge difference between approaching a car and approaching a person. Te car creates a subjective barrier that isolates the interaction. In any event, if we’re discussing the general need to reform the law, and looking to this case only for illustrative value, then why would you ask this question? Isn’t it enough to say it’s plausible that Martin hid? In this context, I shouldn’t have to convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that a particular event happened, right? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5472 "2012-08-25T15:20:56Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I’ve never understood why people keep harping on this, making your race part of your online identity is not exactly rare for black teenagers. > > And pot smoking is certainly rare behavior for a teen! My word! First of all, there hasn’t been a great deal of harping about this. It was part of the point I was making about character assassination. This thread has been focused on Zimmerman and not Martin despite the fact Martin’s behavior was the driving force behind the shooting. Secondly, I’m not buying the “everybody else does it” line. Nobody I went to school with used race like Martin did. While I’m sure the phenomenon isn’t rare that doesn’t place it in a positive light. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5473 "2012-08-25T15:22:25Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Where exactly are you suggesting he was hiding? There was no cover along the walkway at the top of the T and Zimmerman did have a flashlight. Any hiding place further south would involve doubling back. I already suggested he was sitting on a porch. All the plausible hiding places are south of the T. I think sitting on a porch is more plausible than lurking in bushes in the rain. > > I would also like to point out that having Martin hide close to Zimmerman is implausible since Zimmerman would have heard him talking to DeeDee. Also if Martin could hear Zimmerman talking to the police, then waiting for Zimmerman to hang up leads to rather unfavorable implications about Martin’s motives. What if he went past the T vertically – that is, not down towards his house but along the cross arm of the T until he was out of sight? Again, not beyond a reasonable doubt. But could it have happened this way? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5474 "2012-08-25T15:39:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There’s a huge difference between approaching a car and approaching a person. Te car creates a subjective barrier that isolates the interaction. > > In any event, if we’re discussing the general need to reform the law, and looking to this case only for illustrative value, then why would you ask this question? Isn’t it enough to say it’s plausible that Martin hid? In this context, I shouldn’t have to convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that a particular event happened, right? I don’t see difference a car makes as a subjective barrier. It’s either a barrier or it’s not. If it’s running it gives the occupant an exit but if it’s not it’s a trap. And I’m not seeing your point about Martin’s location. I missed something in this conversation. Let’s conclude that Martin is hiding in the bushes in the 1st house South East of Zimmerman’s position. This puts him in line with Z’s account of approaching him diagonally. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5475 "2012-08-25T16:01:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What if he went past the T vertically – that is, not down towards his house but along the cross arm of the T until he was out of sight? > > Again, not beyond a reasonable doubt. But could it have happened this way? You mean Martin went East to Retreat View Circle? It is possible, but having Martin follow Zimmerman back to the T to confront him sounds for more damaging than my scenario. If Martin was sitting on a porch, then he could seen Zimmerman and spontaneously decided to talk to him. Following Zimmerman makes it sound like a planned confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5476 "2012-08-25T16:18:14Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You mean Martin went East to Retreat View Circle? It is possible, but having Martin follow Zimmerman back to the T to confront him sounds for more damaging than my scenario. > > If Martin was sitting on a porch, then he could seen Zimmerman and spontaneously decided to talk to him. Following Zimmerman makes it sound like a planned confrontation. Not at all. Now he’s not going to confront Zimerman – he’s going home, thinking Zimmerman was continuing south. Again: plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5477 "2012-08-25T16:19:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t see difference a car makes as a subjective barrier. It’s either a barrier or it’s not. If it’s running it gives the occupant an exit but if it’s not it’s a trap. Come on. Approaching someone face o face has immediacy. Approaching someone’s car does not. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5478 "2012-08-25T17:13:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all. Now he’s not going to confront Zimerman – he’s going home, thinking Zimmerman was continuing south. > Again: plausible. possible but not likely. If he walked to the street then he would have walked home from the street and not back toward the direction and person he ran from. According to Zimmerman he walked to the end of the sidewalk and would have seen Martin walking down the street or anywhere along the path. > [@Bricker](#): > > Come on. > Approaching someone face o face has immediacy. Approaching someone’s car does not. immediacy of a confrontation? . I acknowledge the car acts as some kind of social barrier. I missed the point of this conversation and don’t understand where you’re going with it. It’s confrontational to approach someone in a car and stare at them but not face to face and……… something…….. and the SYG law? If I can summarize your position, the person with a gun feels more empowered to move through society in less fear of harm but should not do so because it endangers those who would cause the harm? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5479 "2012-08-25T17:24:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Here’s the problem with your position. I can go places and hear things that wouldn’t be said in your presence. You can only guess. The social changes that have occurred in the last half of the 20th century are substantial. It doesn’t mean there aren’t people with racial issues. It means they are the odd man out. > [@Magiver](#): > > You’re basing your opinion on electronic glurge instead if the real world. How much time do you spend reading the same bullshit from groups like the New Black Panthers? > This is not 1950. Governors aren’t standing in front of schools and union workers aren’t chasing black people away from jobs. I want to stress that my experiences isn’t simply a narrow slice from the Internet but from my experiences as whole: the only black person in classes (I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been called in for “cheating” or “plagiarizing”; In undergrad, I was outright told by a classmate that I “stole” her friend’s seat who was denied admission), during research in the laboratory (I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been indirectly and directly accused of stealing reagents/sabotaging other people’s experiments, have had campus police called on me numerous times when I belonged there), and my job where the list is down-right exhaustive and ranges between unequal pay to disparaging comments about black students. Each and every time these things occur, I do not act ghetto or use it as a source of conflict; rather, I quietly share my experiences with my personal support network that consist of non-white friends (mostly) and family. I rarely share experiences with racism with white people because, generally, white people don’t believe in racism unless it involves rope, a tree, an angry mob, and a burning cross. That’s a slight exaggeration but it’s not far off the mark. Not to pull a rural-suburban on you, but I bet my bottom dollar I have more white friends than you have black friends. I’ll even go further and bet I have more healthy, enduring relationships with white people than you do with _any_ racial group excluding your own. The reason it’s convenient to label me a racist is because it’s vogue to label blacks who speak up as using the “race card”. This is used specifically to diminish the complaint and to denigrate the person speaking up. It’s a cruel but effective piece of mental gymnastics. I know you’d like to steer me to another, more convenient conclusion but I ain’t stupid. For what it’s worth, I agree to disagree and hope you feel the same. I don’t give much credence to your personal experiences, in turn, you don’t give much weight to my personal experiences. Someone here just posted that racial profiling isn’t racism. That’s when it’s obvious we’re at an impasse when [discussing race](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBTXqK-ZIg) in this thread. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5480 "2012-08-25T18:55:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all. Now he’s not going to confront Zimerman – he’s going home, thinking Zimmerman was continuing south. > > Again: plausible. You seem to be turned around. If Martin had intended to return to Brandy Green’s house he would have walked down Retreat View Circle to the front entrance of Green’s house. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5481 "2012-08-25T19:17:24Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I want to stress that my experiences isn’t simply a narrow slice from the Internet but from my experiences as whole: the only black person in classes (I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been called in for “cheating” or “plagiarizing”; In undergrad, I was outright told by a classmate that I “stole” her friend’s seat who was denied admission), during research in the laboratory (I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been indirectly and directly accused of stealing reagents/sabotaging other people’s experiments, have had campus police called on me numerous times when I belonged there), and my job where the list is down-right exhaustive and ranges between unequal pay to disparaging comments about black students. Each and every time these things occur, I do not act ghetto or use it as a source of conflict; rather, I quietly share my experiences with my personal support network that consist of non-white friends (mostly) and family. I rarely share experiences with racism with white people because, generally, white people don’t believe in racism unless it involves rope, a tree, an angry mob, and a burning cross. That’s a slight exaggeration but it’s not far off the mark. Since I don’t know you it’s tough to comment on your experiences which I’m not going to discount them. I don’t know where the chicken and the egg is in all of this but if you’re going through life with your racial perceptions I would posit the idea that it’s projecting into your life and affects those around you. There is also a rather large elephant following you around that you should object strongly to. It’s the current practice of lowering standards in schools and jobs as a method of bringing in minorities. It’s been discussed in threads before and this isn’t the place to hash it out but it affects how people perceive your achievements. We just went through this in my city where testing standards were lowered repeatedly to bring in more minority police and fire fighters. It did not sit well with local black leaders or black applicants. It certainly doesn’t sit well with other minorities or majorities. This follows you around at no fault of your own. > [@Honesty](#): > > Not to pull a rural-suburban on you, but I bet my bottom dollar I have more white friends than you have black friends. Of that I have no doubt. Statistically you’re education and job pull you into the mainstream world and away from what you described as a humble (and I’m guessing less diverse) background. My friendships go all the way back to grade school and are very enduring. I hope your’s are too. > [@Honesty](#): > > The reason it’s convenient to label me a racist is because it’s vogue to label blacks who speak up as using the “race card”. Actually I labeled your views as bigoted. I don’t think you think you are of a superior race (the definition of racist). I don’t think you’re a bad person. I do think you’re perceptions of society are off the mark enough that it affects this thread. I don’t think you’re applying logic correctly based on the evidence. You’re attack on people who agreed with Bricker was WAAAAAAAY out of line. You were literally poking people in the chest electronically daring them to turn you in. You’re still talking about it so I touched a nerve. I don’t think you’re a racist. How about we drop this thread within a thread and argue the subject going forward based on the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5482 "2012-08-25T19:21:39Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You seem to be turned around. If Martin had intended to return to Brandy Green’s house he would have walked down Retreat View Circle to the front entrance of Green’s house. this is the point I made earlier. regardless of where Martin was, the fight location indicated that he approached Zimmerman and the conversation shows that he started the interaction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=273) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=275)