# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/541 "2012-04-22T17:18:37Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You still don’t understand the rules. Shoot or don’t shoot, don’t threaten to shoot. Don’t point your firearm at people. Don’t fire warning shots. It will look bad in court. It would indicate that you weren’t in fear for your life. I don’t necessarily think the rules make sense, but I didn’t write them. I’m not talking about rules, I’m not talking what’s believable. Why would a man with a loaded gun be screaming for others to help him, rather than screaming “stop or I’ll shoot!” Its really a simple question. How will Zimmerman answer it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/542 "2012-04-22T17:19:04Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Old enough to smoke pot? Wtf? I guess I was an adult at age 14. 🙂 A 17-year-old is best referred to as a teenager. Not a boy (child) or a man (adult). He’s an adolescent. That time between childhood and adulthood. Legally, he is a minor [child]. You might be able to stretch things and call him a “young adult”, but I still think teenager is the best and most accurate descriptor. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/543 "2012-04-22T18:05:29Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Old enough to smoke pot? Wtf? You don’t remember why he was in Sanford in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![DaHarder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@DaHarder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaHarder)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/544 "2012-04-22T18:05:42Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Old enough to smoke pot? Wtf? Exactly! … it’s obvious that he has absolutely no desire to discuss these matters intelligently or rationally, so it’s probably best to just ignore his nonsensical ranting. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/545 "2012-04-22T18:07:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I guess I was an adult at age 14. 🙂 > > A 17-year-old is best referred to as a teenager. Not a boy (child) or a man (adult). He’s an adolescent. That time between childhood and adulthood. > > Legally, he is a minor [child]. > > You might be able to stretch things and call him a “young adult”, but I still think teenager is the best and most accurate descriptor. I think teenager is a good term. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/546 "2012-04-22T18:11:16Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m not talking about rules, I’m not talking what’s believable. > > Why would a man with a loaded gun be screaming for others to help him, rather than screaming “stop or I’ll shoot!” Its really a simple question. How will Zimmerman answer it? I answered your question and you refused to believe the answer. I have no control over what what you believe. This is how people who have a ccw are trained. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/547 "2012-04-22T18:21:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m not talking about rules, I’m not talking what’s believable. > > Why would a man with a loaded gun be screaming for others to help him, rather than screaming “stop or I’ll shoot!” Its really a simple question. How will Zimmerman answer it? The inability to gain access to the gun because someone is on top of him. Certainly he’s not just laying there getting pummeled. He’s literally a few dozen feet from a number of condo’s knowing the police are on their way. Flashing a gun about prior to their arrival would not be a prudent thing. If the timeline is accurate, this all spins out of control in 1 minute. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/548 "2012-04-22T18:41:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Flashing a gun about prior to their arrival would not be a prudent thing. Following a person you believe may be armed is not a prudent thing, so prudence is not a virtue Zimmerman was acquainted with. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/549 "2012-04-22T19:05:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The inability to gain access to the gun because someone is on top of him. Certainly he’s not just laying there getting pummeled. He’s literally a few dozen feet from a number of condo’s knowing the police are on their way. Flashing a gun about prior to their arrival would not be a prudent thing. > > If the timeline is accurate, this all spins out of control in 1 minute. This is a point I’ve raised. If Trayvon prevents him from getting the gun by being on top then, obviously, there’s a point at which Trayvon is no longer on top. Maybe Trayvon is not still pounding away when Zimmerman fires. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/550 "2012-04-22T19:05:54Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > 17 year-old males are boys. Get over it. You really need to stop using that word. Referring to a black male using the term boy is racist and an insult. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/551 "2012-04-22T19:15:08Z")
No. Referring to a grown adult black man as a boy is an insult. Referring to a boy as a boy is using the word as it’s intended to be used. I’m amusing myself now using your terminology here. Couple has a baby: “Congratulations! Is it a girl or a male?” Preschool teacher is talking about her class: “There’s eleven kids enrolled, six girls and five boys. Oh, sorry–six girls, three boys, and two men.” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/552 "2012-04-22T19:16:33Z")
Teenaged male, teenaged man, or teenaged boy. Which is the more common usage? Class? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/553 "2012-04-22T19:30:49Z")
Teenaged man sounds very odd to my ears. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/554 "2012-04-22T19:33:10Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > This is a point I’ve raised. If Trayvon prevents him from getting the gun by being on top then, obviously, there’s a point at which Trayvon is no longer on top. Maybe Trayvon is not still pounding away when Zimmerman fires. Not really. Zimmerman would just need to roll onto his left hip for a second to draw the his pistol. I haven’t seen any description of what kind of holster he used, but assume if it looked like this: [http://www.elitesurvival.com/images/products/asbh.jpg](http://www.elitesurvival.com/images/products/asbh.jpg) If he was being pummeled, then the harder part is getting his right arm free. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/555 "2012-04-22T19:37:11Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > No. Referring to a grown adult black man as a boy is an insult. Referring to a boy as a boy is using the word as it’s intended to be used. > > I’m amusing myself now using your terminology here. Couple has a baby: “Congratulations! Is it a girl or a male?” > > Preschool teacher is talking about her class: “There’s eleven kids enrolled, six girls and five boys. Oh, sorry–six girls, three boys, and two men.” Okay. Walk up to a 17 year old black male and call him boy and tell me how that works for you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/556 "2012-04-22T19:39:47Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Okay. Walk up to a 17 year old black male and call him boy and tell how that works for you. :rolleyes: I wouldn’t call any one “boy” except maybe a very young kid. “Son” or “kid” or “buddy” or something like that. “Boy” is insulting to almost anyone. But it’s a completely different matter if I’m talking about someone. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/557 "2012-04-22T19:50:52Z")
I’m going to ignore the absurd appeal to racism, especially since I referred to all 17 year old males. What do you call high school sports teams? Boys and girls. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/558 "2012-04-22T19:56:45Z")
Who was it in the previous incarnation of this thread who expressed the opinion that **seventeen-year-olds were not teenagers**? Some of the mental gymnastics in these threads are amazing to me. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/559 "2012-04-22T20:00:57Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Okay. Walk up to a 17 year old black male and call him boy and tell me how that works for you. No. That’s a silly idea. But may I say that I recently had a conversation with two African-American high-school girls, and they were talking about boys. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > 10 percent of all murders in the U.S. are committed by people under 18. Trayvon was old enough to enlist in the army. He was old enough to smoke pot. He was old enough to get a driver’s license. I had a driver license when I was younger than Trayvon. He was old enough to left at Green’s house while he Dad and his dad’e girlfriend went out and he was watching Green’s son. Calling him a kid or a boy is an exercise in semantics, to make him sound like a victim. All the things you mention would not magically changed when he turned 18. Calling him a boy or a kid is that same trick as the pictures of him at 12. I’m jumping back a bit, but may I point out that Trayvon was only old enough to enlist in the army with parental permission and old enough to get a driver’s license with parental permission. Unlike actual grown men, who may do these things as they please. And that he was probably not technically watching Green’s son because 13 is old enough to be left alone at home anyway (and yet we only call 13-year-olds men in a symbolic fashion at their bar mitzvah). Trayvon’s age here plays greatly into the picture, because 17-year-olds do dumb things. Like wander around in the rain, because it’s a much more private way to talk to your girlfriend then back at the house with the 13-year-old nebbing around. But at 28, Zimmerman, with his experience with security work and his educational background in criminal justice, should have been smarter than Martin. He should have been in control of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/560 "2012-04-22T20:02:38Z")
Well, **Joel Upchurch** , I don’t know about placing a holster behind you instead of in front which is what I assumed. He was pinned so no rollling if we are to believe Zimmerman’s surrogates. Plus the brother says there was a struggle for the gun after Trayvon spotted it. I don’t know how that happens if the holster is not in the front. What I don’t understand is that all Zimmerman did was yell for help and scooch onto the grass before deciding to kill Trayvon. No punches thrown, no trying to escape the pin. I know the weight advantage has shrunk to 20 lbs. but damn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=29)