# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 282
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5623 "2012-10-04T00:49:11Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Maybe you didn’t get the memo that’s been circulating around the last 6 months, but its Zimmerman who has said that Martin grabbed his head. I know, it sounds crazy, but that is what your boy is claiming. And where was the blood on Martin’s hands? And I am yet to get a good explanation for this incongruity. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5624 "2012-10-04T01:00:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Your question makes no sense. Why would his head be grabbed? there’s nothing to grab onto unless he had hair or ginormous ears. His head would have been pushed and Martin’s hands would have been all over him. [“The suspect grabbed my head and slammed it into the concrete sidewalk several times.”](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/06/21/written_statement_0226.pdf) I’m glad you are finally seeing the insanity that is George Zimmerman’s account. Just HOW did Martin slam his head into the sidewalk? Not once. Not twice. But SEVERAL times. And leave nary a mark on Zimmerman’s face that is indicative of this kind of violence. And do it without getting any of Zimmerman’s DNA on his hands. It DOESN’T make sense. But of course you will suddenly change your mind on this and try to find a way to explain it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5625 "2012-10-04T01:10:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Maybe you didn’t get the memo that’s been circulating around the last 6 months, but its Zimmerman who has said that Martin grabbed his head. I know, it sounds crazy, but that is what your boy is claiming. :rolleyes: What it sounds like is a parsing of words. Martin pushed his head down using his hands. That’s it. There is nothing complicated about it nor is there any case to be made by demanding the exact placement of hands. Zimmerman said his head was slammed into the cement, and there are wounds that correlate with that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5626 "2012-10-04T01:15:50Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [“The suspect grabbed my head and slammed it into the concrete sidewalk several times.”](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/06/21/written_statement_0226.pdf) > > I’m glad you are finally seeing the insanity that is George Zimmerman’s account. Just HOW did Martin slam his head into the sidewalk? Not once. Not twice. But SEVERAL times. And leave nary a mark on Zimmerman’s face that is indicative of this kind of violence. And do it without getting any of Zimmerman’s DNA on his hands. > > It DOESN’T make sense. But of course you will suddenly change your mind on this and try to find a way to explain it. why would there be a mark on his face from pushing it into the cement? why would there be DNA on Martin’s hands? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5627 "2012-10-04T01:21:15Z")
His damn words are the only evidence we have. Parsing evidence is what one does when they are evaluating a case. Telling us that Zimmerman meant to say “pushed down” instead of grabbed and slammed is telling us that Zimmerman’s words are not reliable evidence. If we can’t trust his word to accurately represent what happened that night, then all we have is a kid with a fatal gunshot wound and a gun with Zimmerman’s name written all over it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5628 "2012-10-04T01:34:50Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > His damn words are the only evidence we have. > > Parsing evidence is what one does when they are evaluating a case. > > Telling us that Zimmerman meant to say “pushed down” instead of grabbed and slammed is telling us that Zimmerman’s words are not reliable evidence. Putting his hands on Zimmerman’s head and pushing down IS grabbing it. You’re trying to create an extremely narrow definition of a single word and ignoring the context it’s used in. I’m not saying he meant to say “pushed down”, I’m saying he accurately described the event using normal speech. He’s not dictating a manual for NASA to ISO 9001 standards. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5629 "2012-10-04T01:36:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > why would there be a mark on his face from pushing it into the cement? Because faces are soft and fleshy? And skulls and cement are hard and highly resistant? I would actually expect more damage to the face if Martin had been _pushing_ versus _slamming_. Pushing would require more force and more contact. > [@](#): > > why would there be DNA on Martin’s hands? Because the guy was 1) bleeding, 2) sweating, and 3) shedding cells from his skin. And Martin had fingernails, which are great DNA-collectors. Not only did Martin have no DNA trace on his hands, but he had no blood on his hands. A broken nose isn’t necessarily a gusher, but the nose WAS bleeding. And Martin wasn’t just slamming dude’s head in. He didn’t just repeatedly punch him. He also tried to smother him. How can a teenager manage to smother a screaming, bleeding man and not pick up a single drop of blood on his hands? HOW? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5630 "2012-10-04T01:41:25Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > And where was the blood on Martin’s hands? > > And I am yet to get a good explanation for this incongruity. Again, Zimmerman wasn’t bleeding like a fire hose. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5631 "2012-10-04T01:48:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Putting his hands on Zimmerman’s head and pushing down IS grabbing it. You’re trying to create an extremely narrow definition of a single word and ignoring the context it’s used in. Watch the reenactment [video](http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmermans-reenactment-trayvon-martin-shooting/story?id=16616864#.UGzodlHxyas). I’ll even point you to the specific time stamp to help you (1:30). Watch how Zimmerman acts out the head banging. Watch it as many times as you need. I have a lot of patience, **Magiver**. But by God, I will take you to the Pit if you keep insisting that I’m wrong on this point. You are being ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5632 "2012-10-04T01:51:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Because faces are soft and fleshy? And skulls and cement are hard and highly resistant? I would actually expect more damage to the face if Martin had been _pushing_ versus _slamming_. Pushing would require more force and more contact. no, pushing would require less force and contact. By far. The damage is done by the cement and the velocity of Zimmerman’s head. > [@monstro](#): > > Because the guy was 1) bleeding, 2) sweating, and 3) shedding cells from his skin. And Martin had fingernails, which are great DNA-collectors. Unless you have evidence that Martin was scratching Zimmerman you’re not making any case for the transfer of DNA. This isn’t an episode of Star Trek where they shoot a scanner beam over Martin and declare DNA evidence. There has to be actual gunk transferred. > [@monstro](#): > > Not only did Martin have no DNA trace on his hands, but he had no blood on his hands. A broken nose isn’t necessarily a gusher, but the nose WAS bleeding. And Martin wasn’t just slamming dude’s head in. He didn’t just repeatedly punch him. He also tried to smother him. How can a teenager manage to smother a screaming, bleeding man and not pick up a single drop of blood on his hands? HOW? To what end do you think your DNA inquest is going? Are you seriously suggesting Zimmerman wasn’t attacked by Martin and it was a tickle fight that caused all those neighbors to dial 911? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5633 "2012-10-04T02:06:16Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] I have a lot of patience, **Magiver**. But by God, I will take you to the Pit if you keep insisting that I’m wrong on this point. You are being ridiculous. [/QUOTE] I had my suspicions before but now I’m fairly certain. He is joking. Can’t no one be this absurd. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5634 "2012-10-04T02:07:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > no, pushing would require less force and contact. By far. The damage is done by the cement and the velocity of Zimmerman’s head. Now I’m going to parse _your_ words. How does velocity come into the picture if Zimmerman’s head was being pushed into the cement. And if Zimmerman’s head was being pushed, not slammed, why is the injury on Zimmerman’s head described as a cut rather than an abrasion? > [@](#): > > Unless you have evidence that Martin was scratching Zimmerman you’re not making any case for the transfer of DNA. This isn’t an episode of Star Trek where they shoot a scanner beam over Martin and declare DNA evidence. There has to be actual gunk transferred. I have no doubt in my mind that if Martin’s hands were coated with Zimmerman’s DNA, you wouldn’t shut up about it. People have been freed from prison because of the absence of their DNA. No DNA is no piddly thing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5635 "2012-10-04T02:12:52Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > People have been freed from prison because of the absence of their DNA. No DNA is no piddly thing. People have been freed from prison because the absence of their DNA and the circumstances of the crime indicated that they were not at the scene of the crime. Is that your point here? That either Zimmerman or Martin were not there? Zimmerman was injured. There is no doubt about that, even you are not disputing that. You seem to be disputing, however, that Martin caused those injuries. Since only Martin and Zimmerman were present at the scene, that would mean that you think Zimmerman’s injuries were self-inflicted. Is that your contention? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5636 "2012-10-04T02:22:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Watch the reenactment [video](http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmermans-reenactment-trayvon-martin-shooting/story?id=16616864#.UGzodlHxyas). I’ll even point you to the specific time stamp to help you (1:30). Watch how Zimmerman acts out the head banging. Watch it as many times as you need. > > I have a lot of patience, **Magiver**. But by God, I will take you to the Pit if you keep insisting that I’m wrong on this point. You are being ridiculous. I’ve seen the video at least 20 times. It appears that you’re expecting a literal miming of the exact movements of Martin’s hands in his re-enactment. That was not the purpose of the video nor is there any way to try a “gotcha” cross examination of Zimmerman based on the video. He makes a brief generic gesture with his hands as part of a narrative and repeats it. Unless you’re suggesting the fight didn’t occur then whatever point you’re trying to make it moot. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5637 "2012-10-04T02:29:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Zimmerman was injured. There is no doubt about that, even you are not disputing that. You seem to be disputing, however, that Martin caused those injuries. Since only Martin and Zimmerman were present at the scene, that would mean that you think Zimmerman’s injuries were self-inflicted. Is that your contention? I want to know how Martin slammed Zimmerman’s head into the cement several times. Zimmerman can’t tell us how. The physical evidence can’t tell us how. Every scenario I imagine does not gel with Zimmerman being able to aim his weapon the way he claims. I think it is a fair question to ask, and yet all I can get from your side is steaming bullshit. And you haven’t even tried. Again, I ask the crowd: If someone repeatedly slammed your head into the sidewalk in such a way that made you think you were going to die, wouldn’t you remember _where_ your head was grabbed? And again, I ask the crowd: How is it possible for two black eyes to disappear after two days? Has anyone ever experience this before? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5638 "2012-10-04T02:30:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve seen the video at least 20 times. It appears that you’re expecting a literal miming of the exact movements of Martin’s hands in his re-enactment. That was not the purpose of the video nor is there any way to try a “gotcha” cross examination of Zimmerman based on the video. He makes a brief generic gesture with his hands as part of a narrative and repeats it. Unless you’re suggesting the fight didn’t occur then whatever point you’re trying to make it moot. Steaming bullshit like this. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5639 "2012-10-04T02:44:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I think it is a fair question to ask, and yet all I can get from your side is steaming bullshit. And you haven’t even tried. You’re avoiding the question. Did Martin cause Zimmerman’s injuries or were they self-inflicted? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5640 "2012-10-04T02:47:20Z")
**Magiver** , you keep insisting that I’m wrong about his head being slammed. Why? Because it doesn’t make sense? I agree that it doesn’t make sense, but you should be challenging Zimmerman about this. Not me. At no time does Zimmerman say his head was pushed down or anything like that. He consistently uses the word “slammed”. He uses a slamming gesture when describing it. He doesn’t appear to be confused on this point. Why you seem to believe otherwise is a mystery. You are implying his own words are not believable on their face by continuing to argue with me. Is that your intention? Forget the discrepancies in the timeline and whether he was following versus chasing. If he can’t accurately describe what happened to him during those last crucial moments, then there is no reason to believe him when he says Martin threatened to kill him. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5641 "2012-10-04T02:50:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re avoiding the question. Did Martin cause Zimmerman’s injuries or were they self-inflicted? I asked my questions first. Why should I answer yours while you ignore mine? Especially since mine have never been asked before. But I’m not going to play this silly game with you anyway. We’ve danced like this in the past. And you’re a horrible dancer. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5642 "2012-10-04T02:54:01Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Magiver** , you keep insisting that I’m wrong about his head being slammed. I’ve completely lost what you’re trying to prove. You keep saying that his video version is wrong. I’m not saying his head wasn’t slammed. I’m saying that you’re parsing of his words doesn’t make sense. Martin used his hands to bang Zimmerman’s head into the cement. Are you disagreeing with this? Yes or no. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=281) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=283)