# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 283
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5643 "2012-10-04T02:56:43Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I asked my questions first. Why should I answer yours while you ignore mine? Especially since mine have never been asked before. > > But I’m not going to play this silly game with you anyway. We’ve danced like this in the past. And you’re a horrible dancer. Terr is asking you to make a specific point and so am I. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5644 "2012-10-04T02:58:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re avoiding the question. Did Martin cause Zimmerman’s injuries or were they self-inflicted? Zimmerman could have been injured by objects in the environment that came in contact with his head during the scuffle. Some might call this self-inflicted. Here’s another detail from the medical examiner’s report that poses problems for Zimmerman’s defense. That tiny abrasion on Martin’s finger? It was on the palmer side. The skin on the outside of his knuckles bore no marks or bruises consistent with even one punch, let alone the dozens or more that Zimmerman claims were delivered. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5645 "2012-10-04T03:08:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Zimmerman could have been injured by objects in the environment that came in contact with his head during the scuffle. Some might call this self-inflicted. Space aliens could have come down and kicked his ass. However, in court there needs to be evidence for “could have’s” and “what if’s”. Zimmerman’s injuries are consistent with his account of what happened. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Here’s another detail from the medical examiner’s report that poses problems for Zimmerman’s defense. That tiny abrasion on Martin’s finger? It was on the palmer side. The skin on the outside of his knuckles bore no marks or bruises consistent with even one punch, let alone the dozens or more that Zimmerman claims were delivered. evidence of slamming Zimmerman’s head into the cement. Which again, is consistent with his account of what happened. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5646 "2012-10-04T03:11:29Z")
The palm side? **you with the face** , I don’t think your last part is correct. The illustration in the autopsy report delineates the palms by drawing in the major creases and of course the angle of the arms, and the cut is drawn on the back of the hand. Your larger point, of course, stands. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5647 "2012-10-04T03:23:30Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > The palm side? **you with the face** , I don’t think your last part is correct. The illustration in the autopsy report delineates the palms by drawing in the major creases and of course the angle of the arms, and the cut is drawn on the back of the hand. > > Your larger point, of course, stands. Good catch. That’s what I get for not cross checking stuff I’ve read online with the actual report. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5648 "2012-10-04T03:24:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve completely lost what you’re trying to prove. You keep saying that his video version is wrong. I’m not saying his head wasn’t slammed. I’m saying that you’re parsing of his words doesn’t make sense. It is shit like this that makes me have zero respect for you. This is the craziness that you posted: > [@](#): > > Your question makes no sense. Why would his head be grabbed? there’s nothing to grab onto unless he had hair or ginormous ears. His head would have been pushed and Martin’s hands would have been all over him. Doesn’t this sound like you, um, denying that his head was grabbed and slammed? Doesn’t it sound like YOU are the one who’s parsing words? “Grabbed and slammed” are words straight out of Zimmerman’s mouth. Not mine. And yet you are still arguing with me about it, even when I work my ass off providing you with cites. To go back, my query was regarding how he could not remember how Martin grabbed and slammed him. Because this is what he tells Serino when he is asked how it happened. He can say that it happened several times. He can describe the horrific pain. But he can’t tell the detective if Martin grabbed him by his ears, forehead, neck, etc. His response to the question is, “I can’t remember.” He doesn’t even pause to think about it. And I asked how this could possibly be. Wouldn’t YOU remember where your scary assassin placed his murderous hands? I think I would. But of course you won’t say you would too. That would be expecting too much from you. I’m not playing “gotcha”. I’m only pointing out that he seems to have amnesia only when it is convenient. It is tiring after awhile. Just as it is tiring having arguments with disingenuous posters such as yourself. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5649 "2012-10-04T03:26:53Z")
Excellent posts, monstro. I am a new poster and I have been following you for months. I love your analysis–same for you and \*\*you with the face. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5650 "2012-10-04T03:29:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Terr is asking you to make a specific point and so am I. And I’m asking why I should give you any respect when you can’t even say, “Oops. My bad. He actually did say his head was slammed, not pushed.” You can’t do this because it would require being a real human being. So I’m not answering a bullshit question I’ve no doubt already answered. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5651 "2012-10-04T03:31:18Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > The illustration in the autopsy report delineates the palms by drawing in the major creases and of course the angle of the arms, and the cut is drawn on the back of the hand. Actually it’s at the knuckle. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5652 "2012-10-04T03:36:53Z")
Below the knuckle. Very small abrasion. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5653 "2012-10-04T03:40:17Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Excellent posts, monstro. > > I am a new poster and I have been following you for months. > > I love your analysis–same for you and \*\*you with the face. \*\* Thanks, **betenoire**. And thanks for the links to those youtube videos. That guy’s style annoys the hell out of me, but he did inspire me to listen to that inteview tape with Serino. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5654 "2012-10-04T04:00:21Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Thanks, **betenoire**. And thanks for the links to those youtube videos. That guy’s style annoys the hell out of me, but he did inspire me to listen to that inteview tape with Serino. I agree, but he does provide food for thought. He made a number of observations that I missed so i had to replay the interviews and said “oh wow, I missed that”. He is extremely observant. One another note, a lot of the arguments being in favor of Zimmerman are VERY linear: A to B to C to D. I think that’s frustrating me as well as you. There are some posters who expect an answer to every single point they make, but refuse to return the favor. Either that or respond with a red herring or ranting and raving (as was done to me some posts ago). It is very frustrating, but I am here to try to gain some insight. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5655 "2012-10-04T04:02:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It is shit like this that makes me have zero respect for you. You have a habit of adding a lot of emotional baggage to the discussion. I’ve been patient with you and will continue to do so regardless. I’m not too worried about your opinion of me but feel free to vent some more if it helps you sleep at night. > [@monstro](#): > > This is the craziness that you posted: > > Doesn’t this sound like you, um, denying that his head was grabbed and slammed? Doesn’t it sound like YOU are the one who’s parsing words? “Grabbed and slammed” are words straight out of Zimmerman’s mouth. Not mine. And yet you are still arguing with me about it, even when I work my ass off providing you with cites. > To go back, my query was regarding how he could not remember how Martin grabbed and slammed him. Because this is what he tells Serino when he is asked how it happened. He can say that it happened several times. He can describe the horrific pain. But he can’t tell the detective if Martin grabbed him by his ears, forehead, neck, etc. His response to the question is, “I can’t remember.” He doesn’t even pause to think about it. You’re right, he doesn’t pause to think about it. It doesn’t require thought. This is precisely what I’ve tried to explain to you. “grabbed”, “slammed”… It doesn’t matter the precise words he used. The explanation is the same. It’s not a function of him not remembering. He didn’t say he didn’t know how his head injuries occurred. It’s clear that he said Martin did it. It’s clear how Martin did it. If I understand you correctly you’re making a case that “grabbed” or “slammed” or any other words used by him convey a different message. They do not. Martin used his hands to impact Zimmerman’s head into the concrete and the injuries match the description of what happened. > [@monstro](#): > > And I asked how this could possibly be. Wouldn’t YOU remember where your scary assassin placed his murderous hands? I think I would. But of course you won’t say you would too. That would be expecting too much from you. to start with, he wasn’t ASKED where Martin’s hands were placed. There is no indication from the video interview that there was any confusion over what Zimmerman was trying to convey. And to answer your question, no, I would not remember the exact position of his hands. I’ve been in a serious bar brawl before. It was a knock down, drag out riot that spilled into the parking lot. Not one person’s account agreed with another as to the events that unfolded. Not one. And that was an hour after it happened. It got worse over time. In this particular case, the relevant piece of information is that Martin forced Zimmerman’s head into the cement. The minutia of the exact position of Martin’s hands is never going to be a talking point in court. A relevant deviation from his account would be to say Martin smashed a rock on the back of his head. That’s a completely different scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5656 "2012-10-04T04:05:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I asked my questions first. Why should I answer yours while you ignore mine? Good. I will then assume you can’t answer it. Your whole argument then falls apart. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5657 "2012-10-04T04:07:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Zimmerman could have been injured by objects in the environment that came in contact with his head during the scuffle. Some might call this self-inflicted. Do explain how “during the scuffle” he gets lacerations on his head and broken nose and Martin gets nothing at all. Lucky coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5658 "2012-10-04T04:07:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Actually it’s at the knuckle. I’m looking right at the drawing. I made it real big and stuff. And it’s not depicted on Trayvon’s knuckle assuming that Trayvon had hands of a relatively standard construction and not some sort of freakish mutation that left his middle knuckle stacked right dab next to his lowest knuckle, with a terrifyingly long stretch of finger up to the upper knuckle. Wow, that’s a creepy image. No wonder George was stunned into inactivity while Trayvon beat him: he probably couldn’t believe those monstrous hands were real. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5659 "2012-10-04T04:07:08Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Below the knuckle. Very small abrasion. consistent with striking someone. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5660 "2012-10-04T04:32:26Z")
Are you conceding that the cut is not in fact on the knuckle? That’s a relief, since it feels like we’ve covered this point a few times in this 5000some posts. Yes, consistent with striking someone. Also possibly consistent with getting a paper cut, getting a splinter, scraping against a doorjamb, cracking open as the result of that dryness we all experience in the winter, or wrestling with an adorable fuzzy kitten. But far less trauma then I’d expect from someone who had just, multiple times, viciously punched Zimmerman’s face and slammed Zimmerman’s head against concrete, which, how do you\* do\* that without getting your hands a little messed up? I’m serious: I see no way to repeatedly slam the near-bald head of an uncooperative victim into a slab of concrete without scraping your hands. Specifically, the backsides and the sides opposite the thumbs. The injury patterns from this confrontation are just the most _curious_ things. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5661 "2012-10-04T07:47:04Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > But far less trauma then I’d expect from someone who had just, multiple times, viciously punched Zimmerman’s face and slammed Zimmerman’s head against concrete, which, how do you do that without getting your hands a little messed up? I’m serious: I see no way to repeatedly slam the near-bald head of an uncooperative victim into a slab of concrete without scraping your hands. Specifically, the backsides and the sides opposite the thumbs. If you are serious then you clearly have no experience at all with fighting. Not even schoolyard punchups. You also have limited ability to visualise. If you are trying to beat someone’s head into the deck, you do it like [this](http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/street-fight.jpg). IOW you grab the sides of the head/ears with the fingers and palm. The thumbs are ideally placed into the eye sockets, but in practice they are placed anywhere on the face. Initially you don’t even need to lift the opponent’s head up. They will reflexively lift it themselves after each blow, allowing you to force it back down. Only after they become semi-conscious will you need to lift it for them, and that is easily achieved by compressing the head while lifting. You seem to have the idea that the whole process involves placing your fingers under the back of the opponent’s skull. I can’t see how else you think this is going to be “getting your hands a little messed up”, or why you think that the opponent being bald is relevant. But such a technique is simply impossible, and not one that even an untrained person would ever adopt. It’s simply impossible because your own hands would cushion the opponents skull. That is what you think would mess up your hands I assume. But of course even instinctively nobody would do that because it quite plainly won’t work. You are effectively beating the opponent’s skull against your fingers. Suffice it to say that your belief that punching someone and beating their head against the pavement \*must \*result in substantial open wounds to the hands betrays your total ignorance of real-world fighting as opposed to Hollywood techniques. Far from necessitating multiple open wounds, one would not even \*expect \*open wounds unless the punch broke a tooth. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5662 "2012-10-04T09:09:59Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Emeraldia, I don’t even know how to begin answering you. Why did Zimmerman kill Trayvon Martin? Was it because he was a racist? Was it because he was a sadist? Or was it because he was a psychopath? > [@](#): > > No, I am not a follower of Mr. Garrison. I was not even made aware of him until today. I am not a frequent visitor of this Leatherman (WTF???). Why are you making these unfounded assumptions about me? I didn’t assume, I asked. Though I assume you’ll like him, because he shares some of your thinking on the case. > [@](#): > > I was actually in dialogue with Shodan. Well, lucky Shodan. I engaged you in dialogue as well. There is no going off or hostility. Just friendly sarcasm. > [@](#): > > Sir, this will be the first and probably the last time I directly respond to you. I asked you a simple question: What do you suppose Zimmerman’s motivation for murdering an innocent black teenager was? If you don’t want to answer it that’s your prerogative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=282) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=284)